UI option for disabling format=flowed
Categories
(MailNews Core :: Composition, enhancement)
Tracking
(Not tracked)
People
(Reporter: holgermetzger, Unassigned)
References
(Blocks 1 open bug)
Details
(Whiteboard: mailnews.send_plaintext_flowed = false)
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Comment 64•5 years ago
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19 years later there is an option to turn off format_flowed for the UI representation, but I don't understand why Thunderbird doesn't follow the WYSIWYG concept per default.
You write a wonderful text block based plain email and send it. This part is done perfectly by Thunderbird with the default settings (72 chars, flowed for mobile compatibility on). But when you look at it again in the Sent folder or if the recipient runs Thunderbird with default settings you see a nearly unreadable mess of very long lines followed by double line breaks.
Only after setting mailnews.display.disable_format_flowed_support to True in about:config you see what you composed once.
Gmail shows the mail as it was composed. Apple Mail on the laptop handles it like Thunderbird. So at least Thunderbird isn't alone.
Doesn't it make sense to set mailnews.display.disable_format_flowed_support automatically based on the window width or make it default given the fact that Thunderbird is a program that mainly runs on large screens?
Comment 65•5 years ago
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Gmail shows the mail as it was composed
No. They do not. See e.g. https://mathiasbynens.be/notes/gmail-plain-text
Every email program mangles emails in some way or other. Because they have to, for technical reasons. Plaintext cannot transport what you typed, exactly as you typed it. Particularly, soft linebreaks will be lost and lines consequently reformatted.
You write ... with the default settings (72 chars, flowed
Even if you see in your Sent folder the same thing that you typed, doesn't mean that your recipient does.
E.g. your recipient has a mobile phone, and does not have 72 chars wide screens. Or he has a large desktop screen and has 150 wide windows. You have no idea how your recipient will read the email. If you force it on him, you may well make it unreadable for him. To prevent that, many email clients will reformat plaintext, even if you try to force a line width. Because the user might simply not have 72 char wide screens.
That's why some mail readers change the plaintext linebreaks even more drastically and less predicable than format=flowed. format=flowed is precisely and well defined what should happen. It distinguishes between soft and hard line breaks.
why Thunderbird doesn't follow the WYSIWYG concept per default.
Because there is no such thing in email. You might think so, but in reality, different clients do line wrapping differently, quoting and line wrapping in quotes, "From " at the start of the line is escaped due to mbox, etc.pp. And I'm not even starting with UTF-8 character sets, quoted-printable, and so on. It gets very much into technical details and implementation specifics of common email programs quickly, but plaintext is not WYSIWYG at all.
Esp. the line wrapping gets messy really quickly.
format=flowed solved actual technical problems, which messed up plaintext emails really badly.
f=f does what most people need for emails. It may not be what you want, or even your friends need, but what most people want. So, you can change the settings, you get what you want, and everybody is happy.
Comment 66•5 years ago
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Hi Ben,
19 years later and you are still around. That's passion.
No. They do not. See e.g. https://mathiasbynens.be/notes/gmail-plain-text
They do it in the WebUI (Fullscreen), I tested it two times by sending an different flowed text email to Gmail and looking at it in the Inbox.
Every line break is there. In the Inbox of Thunderbird it's the expected mess for the same email.
f=f does what most people need for emails. It may not be what you want, or even your friends need, but what most people want.
Following this logic Gmail would do it that way as well because it's by far the biggest mail provider. But they don't.
Don't get me wrong I'm not questioning f=f, the send behaviour of Thunderbird or any other standard. I'm talking about the default and static UI representation of flowed text mails.
Because there is no such thing in email (WYSIWYG)
Well at least this problem is gone when using html. It seems to follow the WYSIWYG concept much more.
I know that you have your very strict opinion and that's perfectly fine for me.
Just wanted to let you know that there are still people who question this.
Cheers
Comment 67•5 years ago
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19 years later and you are still around. That's passion.
Thanks. Yes, it is!
sending an different flowed text email to Gmail and looking at it in the Inbox
You're sending it to yourself, and read it in the same client as you typed it. You might see it the way you typed. Your recipient might not. The WYSIWYG is an illusion that's true for you, but not for your readers. I argue that's even worse, because deceptive. Nobody has ever coherently defined how plaintext email is supposed to work, and requirements evolved a lot over time, and each client adapted in its own way. You cannot be sure how your recipient sees your email.
format=flowed cleans a lot of this up and clearly specifies what should happen in which case.
html. It seems to follow the WYSIWYG concept much more
HTML isn't WYSIWYG, either. It's been semantic since its inception, and specifically not for layout. CSS would be for layout, but even that specifically allows clients to adapt rendering. The renderer adapts the page to the device, including line breaks. HTML also has soft line wrapping by default, like format=flowed.
format=flowed has both soft and hard line breaks. If you want to type a hard linebreak, just press ENTER on your keyboard in the Thunderbird editor. The default is soft wrapping, which is what most people want 95% of the time.
You don't like that, and that's fine, so you can disable it.
Comment 68•5 years ago
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You're sending it to yourself, and read it in the same client as you typed it
Just to be clear with the Gmail example. No I don't do this. It wouldn't proof anything as you said.
I type the email (text flowed) in Thunderbird and send it from there (different email server, no text manipulation) to Gmail.
Then I look at the email in the Gmail WebUI Inbox and Thunderbird Sent folder (or Inbox when having myself in CC).
Gmail WebUI handles every soft line break as line break, Thunderbird doesn't.
The URL you posted above is from 2014. Maybe you expect Gmail to do something completely different than it does now.
Comment 69•3 years ago
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f=f seems to solve problems that no longer exists, and add new existing problems. In 2022, I have difficulties seeing why anyone would enable it, and why it is enabled by default. Even in the 90-ties my mail readers supported soft wrapping.
Comment 70•1 year ago
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I don't take a position in this debate. Just correcting the resolution since this bug's request (for an UI option) was denied in comment #65.
Description
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