940112 - Australis: Implement an alternative to the add-on bar for add-ons that need to display more information than just a button (eg forecastfox)

Status: VERIFIED WONTFIX

(Firefox :: Toolbars and Customization, defect)

Description

[Bill Gianopoulos [:WG9s]]

The Australis landing makes forecastfox virtually unusable.  The issue is with the removal of the add-on bar there is no place other than the menu bar where it makes any sense to put the forecastfox icons.  However the idea of australis was to make things look less cluttered.  Exactly how does this achieve that goal?

Comment 1

[Bill Gianopoulos [:WG9s]]

Attachment: ForecastFox In Linux

This is how it looks in Linux

Comment 2

[Dave Garrett]

Adding to australis-merge meta-bug for tracking with the other addon incompatibility bugs.

Comment 3

[Bill Gianopoulos [:WG9s]]

Attachment: ForecastfoxInWindows.png

Comment 4

[Bill Gianopoulos [:WG9s]]

Attachment: ForecastfoxInLinux

Oops.  previous screenshot was from non-australis version.

Comment 5

[Bill Gianopoulos [:WG9s]]

(In reply to Dave Garrett from comment #2)
> Adding to australis-merge meta-bug for tracking with the other addon
> incompatibility bugs.

Thanks was trying to figure out what bug to add this to.  I was pretty sure there would be one.

Comment 6

[Bill Gianopoulos [:WG9s]]

This is very much why when the status bar was removed, the add-on bar was introduced.  Kind of reminds me of the George Santayana quotation, "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."

Comment 7

[:Gijs (he/him)]

Provided:
a) we can't change forecastfox
b) forecastfox keeps their UI like this

What do you actually want us to do? Bring back the add-on bar? Something else? The current summary isn't helpful, please adjust it.

Comment 8

[Bill Gianopoulos [:WG9s]]

Well, for Forecastfox, which displays a lot of information on a toolbar, the only real choice I think would be to bring back the add-on bar.  This could, I suppose, be via an extension.

Comment 9

[:Gijs (he/him)]

(In reply to Bill Gianopoulos [:WG9s] from comment #8)
> Well, for Forecastfox, which displays a lot of information on a toolbar, the
> only real choice I think would be to bring back the add-on bar.  This could,
> I suppose, be via an extension.

https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/classicthemerestorer/ probably does what you need.

Comment 10

[Bill Gianopoulos [:WG9s]]

I am reopening this because my complaint and the reason the other bug was resolved invalid are not related.  The other bug said just move the icons form the add-ons bar to the navbar and everyone is happy. The issue is this does not work for either add-ons that display more on the add-on bar than a simple icon or people who have a lot of add-ons (and thus icons).  Just not enough room on the navbar for this.

I realize most of the UX team are Johnny come latley's who probably have never heard of Mozillazine, so I am copying my Mozilzinne posts here:

 really do not understand why the UX team always seems to think changing the look and feel needs to be combined with eliminating features.

Changing the look and feel and eliminating the add-on bar have zero relationship with each other.

They have expressed that having native buttons on the navbar at the top of the screen adn add-on buttons at screenbottom gives the add-ons a second class status. Fine then move the add-on bar to screen top immediately below the nav-bar.

The issue is their assertion (and assertions should be fatal ;-) ) that having what is now displayed on the add-on bar moved to the navbar because the addon developers would welcome the enhanced status has 3 problems.

1. That only works for add-ons that only display a toolbar sized icon on the add-on bar.

2. That only works for users with a small number of add-ons installed.

3. That is entirely counter to the entire idea of Firefox. What the Firefox or add-on developers want has always been secondary to what the user wants. Firefox's real differentiater has always been that the user can make it work the way they want. This change is counter to that ideal.

I doubt the UX team will see this because they are all Johnny come lately's and the Mozillizine forum users are the long-time die-hards.

What I think makes sense is to restore the add-on bar, yet to satisfy the not making the add-ons feel second class, move it from screen bottom to immediately below the navbar.

For those who can't abide change, moving it to screen bottom could be provided by an add-on.

Alienating your base to try to attract a small incremental percentage of new users by something that looks new and flashy is never a good long-term strategy.

Comment 11

[Bill Gianopoulos [:WG9s]]

(In reply to :Gijs Kruitbosch from comment #7)
> Provided:
> a) we can't change forecastfox
> b) forecastfox keeps their UI like this
> 
> What do you actually want us to do? Bring back the add-on bar? Something
> else? The current summary isn't helpful, please adjust it.

Oh and asking me if that was what I wanted so you could dupe it to an already resolved invalid bug ... really????

Comment 12

[Bill Gianopoulos [:WG9s]]

This is probably the attitude that has prompted people to post the spam bugs.

Comment 13

[Ed Morley [:emorley]]

Bill, does this summary reflect more what you are looking for?

(Note I'm nothing to do with Australis, and the bug may still end up being wontfixed - but I think asking for some way to satisfy these use cases with a panel/bar/??? is more likely to go down well than asking for the original unchanged add-on bar back).

Comment 14

[:Gijs (he/him)]

This is not the right place to have a discussion about this. Please post to firefox-dev. There was an extremely lengthy discussion there already.

Separately, you've been around this community long enough to know that personal insults have no place in a discussion such as this, wherever we have it.

(In reply to Bill Gianopoulos [:WG9s] from comment #11)
> (In reply to :Gijs Kruitbosch from comment #7)
> > Provided:
> > a) we can't change forecastfox
> > b) forecastfox keeps their UI like this
> > 
> > What do you actually want us to do? Bring back the add-on bar? Something
> > else? The current summary isn't helpful, please adjust it.
> 
> Oh and asking me if that was what I wanted so you could dupe it to an
> already resolved invalid bug ... really????

Please don't insinuate bad faith by claiming I ask for clarification "so" I could dupe it. As it is, there's no point keeping duplicates around. There've been 50+ bugs opened on Australis-introduced issues in the past 24 hours, and we'd like to focus on actionable open bugs. If you think you have new arguments as to why we should keep the add-on bar, please post to firefox-dev.

Ed midaired with me, so with the summary adjusted we can leave this open for now, but we really really really need someone to actually have an actual idea about what would fix the perceived issue, other than "bring back the add-on bar". As it is, this bug isn't fixable (not even with the changed summary).

Comment 15

[Jim Jeffery not reading bug-mail 1/2/11]

(In reply to :Gijs Kruitbosch from comment #9)
> (In reply to Bill Gianopoulos [:WG9s] from comment #8)
> > Well, for Forecastfox, which displays a lot of information on a toolbar, the
> > only real choice I think would be to bring back the add-on bar.  This could,
> > I suppose, be via an extension.
> 
> https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/classicthemerestorer/
> probably does what you need.
> 
> *** This bug has been marked as a duplicate of bug 896524 ***

That addon is over-kill for those of us (that just need the addon-bar). I like the new look, and will learn the new 'feel', but for addons like ForecastFox that display a wide number of Icons moving it to navbar results in errors in the Error Console complaining about it being too wide and moves it back to the pallet.

Comment 17

[:Gijs (he/him)]

(In reply to Jim Jeffery not reading bug-mail 1/2/11 from comment #15)
> addons like
> ForecastFox that display a wide number of Icons moving it to navbar results
> in errors in the Error Console complaining about it being too wide and moves
> it back to the pallet.

I'll simply note that this message isn't generated by you moving it to the navbar, it's generated by the add-on itself auto-inserting itself into the addon bar, which then automatically checks if it could migrate to the navbar and, as it's so wide, decides not to do that so as not to take up so much space on your navbar.

Comment 18

[Jim Jeffery not reading bug-mail 1/2/11]

(In reply to :Gijs Kruitbosch from comment #17)
> (In reply to Jim Jeffery not reading bug-mail 1/2/11 from comment #15)
> > addons like
> > ForecastFox that display a wide number of Icons moving it to navbar results
> > in errors in the Error Console complaining about it being too wide and moves
> > it back to the pallet.
> 
> I'll simply note that this message isn't generated by you moving it to the
> navbar, it's generated by the add-on itself auto-inserting itself into the
> addon bar, which then automatically checks if it could migrate to the navbar
> and, as it's so wide, decides not to do that so as not to take up so much
> space on your navbar.


I tried using the Classic Theme Restore - and I can re-add the addon-bar there, but the check for 'addon too wide' is still removing it from the addon-bar.  Is there a way to override the addon too wide or at least increase it to say 275 or 300 pix, rather than the 100px check figure ?

Comment 19

[Nux!]

Hello,

I sent an email about the add-on bar to firefox-dev, but it never reached the list (I'm subscribed, obviously). Before I attempt to send again, is that list moderated?

Comment 20

[Mike de Boer [:mikedeboer]]

(In reply to Nux! from comment #19)
> Hello,
> 
> I sent an email about the add-on bar to firefox-dev, but it never reached
> the list (I'm subscribed, obviously). Before I attempt to send again, is
> that list moderated?

Yes this is moderated.

Closing this bug as WONTFIX. Further discussion and feedback can take place on the appropriate channels (eg. firefox-dev).

Comment 21

[Bill Gianopoulos [:WG9s]]

NIce to realize you really don;t care about users.

Comment 22

[:Gijs (he/him)]

(In reply to Jim Jeffery not reading bug-mail 1/2/11 from comment #18)
> (In reply to :Gijs Kruitbosch from comment #17)
> > (In reply to Jim Jeffery not reading bug-mail 1/2/11 from comment #15)
> > > addons like
> > > ForecastFox that display a wide number of Icons moving it to navbar results
> > > in errors in the Error Console complaining about it being too wide and moves
> > > it back to the pallet.
> > 
> > I'll simply note that this message isn't generated by you moving it to the
> > navbar, it's generated by the add-on itself auto-inserting itself into the
> > addon bar, which then automatically checks if it could migrate to the navbar
> > and, as it's so wide, decides not to do that so as not to take up so much
> > space on your navbar.
> 
> 
> I tried using the Classic Theme Restore - and I can re-add the addon-bar
> there, but the check for 'addon too wide' is still removing it from the
> addon-bar.  Is there a way to override the addon too wide or at least
> increase it to say 275 or 300 pix, rather than the 100px check figure ?

AIUI Classic Theme Restorer adds a new element (or it should, anyway) for the add-on bar. The automatic removals stuff won't affect that new bar, only the shim that we're using. If you added the item to the new bar that CTR adds, it shouldn't be affected by this check at all.

If it is, you should probably check with the author of Classic Theme Restorer (that they're not trying to reuse the same add-on bar) and the add-on whose item you're trying to add (that they don't mess with customization by always reinserting themselves in the same container (which some add-ons do)). We can't fix either of those issues for them.

Comment 23

[Bill Gianopoulos [:WG9s]]

(In reply to Mike de Boer [:mikedeboer] from comment #20)
> (In reply to Nux! from comment #19)
> > Hello,
> > 
> > I sent an email about the add-on bar to firefox-dev, but it never reached
> > the list (I'm subscribed, obviously). Before I attempt to send again, is
> > that list moderated?
> 
> Yes this is moderated.
> 
> Closing this bug as WONTFIX. Further discussion and feedback can take place
> on the appropriate channels (eg. firefox-dev).

So only place to discuss is on firefox-dev where you just admitted discussion is censored.

Whatever happened to when this project was supposedly open?

Comment 24

[Bill Gianopoulos [:WG9s]]

Oh and you are **** off contributors now, BTW.

Comment 25

[Justin Dolske [:Dolske]]

Bill, you've been around long enough that you should know that rants and flames like non-constructive and unacceptable.

Comment 26

[Bill Gianopoulos [:WG9s]]

(In reply to Justin Dolske [:Dolske] from comment #25)
> Bill, you've been around long enough that you should know that rants and
> flames like non-constructive and unacceptable.

Well you see, I was about to post a constructive suggestion.  But for the second time my bug got WONTFIXd before I had a chance.

Comment 27

[Mike de Boer [:mikedeboer]]

(In reply to Bill Gianopoulos [:WG9s] from comment #23)
> So only place to discuss is on firefox-dev where you just admitted
> discussion is censored.
> 
> Whatever happened to when this project was supposedly open?

Censoring discussions is a whole lot more negative than 'moderated'; we intend to keep out flames and rants to maintain healthy and constructive discussions, which was problematic in earlier discussion forums. Moderation is a good thing, in this case, and if you're having trouble getting your message(s) through on firefox-dev, please let me know!

We're not going to stop caring about users & contributors, evar! The only thing we're painstakingly trying to maintain is sanity in the enormous backlog of work that is Bugzilla. That's why we try so hard to keep this area subjective to tracking work. Discussions are more than welcome and help us achieve so much more, but your audience will be most receptive to ideas when in discussion mode, which is more likely to happen on a discussion forum rather than a bugtracker.

Comment 28

[Bill Gianopoulos [:WG9s]]

Problem is my message does not belong on firefox-dev.  It is more of a suggestion on how to fix the Forecastfox issue, which might have been more likely to happen had my initial summary not been altered beyond al recognition.

Comment 29

[Bill Gianopoulos [:WG9s]]

A discussion on firefox-dev does not seem the way to engage forecast developers to implement my idea.  And I realize bugzilla is not the best way either just figured they might find it on a search.

Comment 30

[Bill Gianopoulos [:WG9s]]

Oh and also the particular way in which the forecastfox add-on works is based exactly on the way the until recently pointed to example Firefox extension worked.  This is exactly how tinderstatus worked, as far as displaying status of all the selected trees (just like weather for selected days) in the statusbar (or later on add-ons bar).

Comment 31

[Bill Gianopoulos [:WG9s]]

OK.  So, as I said earlier maybe what was needed was an extension to re-add the add-on bar.  It seems classic them restorer allows you to do this without having to undo all the Australis changes (although form the name and description this is not at all obvious), so I am OK with closing this bug.  I have also posted on t \he Classic Theme Restorer support thread changed I would like to see them make to make this less of an anti Australis add-on and more of an added functionality add=on. To even include changing the name of the add-on.

Comment 32

[Mike de Boer [:mikedeboer]]

(In reply to Bill Gianopoulos [:WG9s] from comment #31)
> OK.  So, as I said earlier maybe what was needed was an extension to re-add
> the add-on bar.  It seems classic them restorer allows you to do this
> without having to undo all the Australis changes (although form the name and
> description this is not at all obvious), so I am OK with closing this bug. 
> I have also posted on t \he Classic Theme Restorer support thread changed I
> would like to see them make to make this less of an anti Australis add-on
> and more of an added functionality add=on. To even include changing the name
> of the add-on.

+1, I agree a name change of the add-on would make it appeal to a larger range of users!

Comment 35

[Bill Gianopoulos [:WG9s]]

Well, the better bar add-on seemed to fix this issue.  Unfortunately, rather than adopting this the designers seemed to decide on a different direction that broke this add-on ads well.

Comment 37

[Kelly Price]

I'll throw my two bits on this one.  I had a ton of stuff in here (Xmarks, Forecast fox, Adblock Plus, Stylish) so I could unclutter my address bar.  Now it's all up there.

But then, folks ignore me.  I've just been around the Internet since Netscape 1.1.

If firefox-dev is closed off (moderated, removal of this topic is automatic), then who do I have to drag to a doctor for contracting Option Removal Syndrome?  I thought we had isolated it inside the GNOME project...

Comment 38

[:Gijs (he/him)]

(In reply to Kelly Price from comment #37)
> I'll throw my two bits on this one.  I had a ton of stuff in here (Xmarks,
> Forecast fox, Adblock Plus, Stylish) so I could unclutter my address bar. 
> Now it's all up there.
> 
> But then, folks ignore me.  I've just been around the Internet since
> Netscape 1.1.
> 
> If firefox-dev is closed off (moderated, removal of this topic is
> automatic), then who do I have to drag to a doctor for contracting Option
> Removal Syndrome?  I thought we had isolated it inside the GNOME project...

As this bug details, there are a lot of add-ons (classic theme restorer, the puzzle piece, better bar, the list goes on) you can use to replace the old builtin add-on bar, many with more options than the builtin version ever had. You could also consider moving some of the add-on buttons like adblockplus and stylish to the panel or another toolbar.

The slights at the people who implement changes like these, however humourously intended, don't help your case.

Comment 39

[Bill Gianopoulos [:WG9s]]

As a better hint the add-on I used in order to get Forecastfox to work correctly is "The Addon Bar (restored)" https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/the-addon-bar/