290351 - Registration of Persian (fa) Firefox localization

Status: RESOLVED DUPLICATE of bug 350764

(Mozilla Localizations :: Registration & Management, defect)

Description

[Iman Seyfi]

User-Agent:       Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.7.5) Gecko/20041107 Firefox/1.0
Build Identifier: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.7.5) Gecko/20041107 Firefox/1.0

Name: IMAN SEYFI
E-Mail:[e-mail]
Mozilla Persian:
Selected Product: FireFox UI 
Language package: fa-IR
Completed smart installation for Win32 paltforms
Gift: free AnonyMizer Toolbar for Firefox is designed for Middle Eastern user.

Reproducible: Always

Steps to Reproduce:
1.
2.
3.

Comment 1

[Robert Kaiser]

don't mess with QA and keywords if you don't know their correct use :)

Comment 2

[Pavel Franc - Mozilla.cz]

In order to commit Persian localization of Firefox you need to apply
for CVS account - see bug 263726 as an example. And you should also provide your
localization files to review.

Comment 3

[Pavel Franc - Mozilla.cz]

*** Bug 296915 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***

Comment 4

[Iman Seyfi]

(In reply to comment #2)
> In order to commit Persian localization of Firefox you need to apply
> for CVS account - see bug 263726 as an example. And you should also provide your
> localization files to review.

Please, explain it more.

Comment 5

[Pavel Franc - Mozilla.cz]

> Please, explain it more.

Due to Trademark Policy [1] the only way how to localize Firefox/Thunderbird is
to form official localization team [2], prepare the locales files [3] and commit
 them to the Mozilla.org CVS server [4]. Therefore, at least one of l10n team
member should have a CVS account. To get CVS account you need to fill a new bug
and provide your ssh public key [5], send the form [6] and attach/link your files.

1] http://www.mozilla.org/foundation/trademarks/l10n-policy.html
2] http://wiki.mozilla.org/L10n:Localization_Teams
3] http://wiki.mozilla.org/Firefox:1.1_Localization
4] http://lxr.mozilla.org/l10n/source/ (for Firefox 1.1)
5] http://www.mozilla.org/cvs-ssh-faq.html#s2
6] http://www.mozilla.org/hacking/form.html

Comment 6

[Hedayat Vatankhah]

If I understood correctly (somewhere in mozilla site), it should be possible to
start working on localization without having a CVS account. Isn't it?! 

Comment 7

[Pavel Franc - Mozilla.cz]

*** Bug 300648 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***

Comment 8

[Behnam Esfahbod [:zwnj]]

Blocks: Bug 285718 - Meta Bug: Tracking bug for Persian

Comment 9

[Behnam Esfahbod [:zwnj]]

(In reply to comment #6)
> If I understood correctly (somewhere in mozilla site), it should be possible to
> start working on localization without having a CVS account. Isn't it?! 

No, it's not.  I'm working on a PO based local cvs for translation team on
FarsiWeb's server, and an automated system for conversions.

We already did an automated pretranslation based on Persian glossary of GNOME. 
Also we have the first persian translation party of Firefox on Thu, 19 Jul at
11:00 AM at Computing Center, Sharif Univ.  Everyone invited to join us here in
Sharif, our on #mozilla.ir at mozilla's irc server.  Send an e-mail to me if
you're interested.

Comment 10

[Behnam Esfahbod [:zwnj]]

We want to use *fa* instead of *fa-IR* because our translation is useful and
good for Afghan people too.  We use *fa* on Wikipedia and GNOME too, that
Afghans use our translation too.

Would someone change the summary of bug to *fa* please?  I don't have permission
for such things yet...

Comment 11

[Iman Seyfi]

It's a talk from this bug surfing owner, Holly to see some interested guy there.
I know there is more than one country will use Persian service of Mozilla
firefox but it's our rights to ensure our country Iran as leader Farsi speakers
in world. However, I'd like to share this project with others who likes help our
team to do this process better. I don't know more about Sharif Univ,
nevertheless, it's cleared that this project was started at first time of
mozilla and it's done for 70% to be a package. Therefore, you need to play with
some way to understand more about CVS or some equal things. We use a new way to
make Firefox localized without professional knowledge. At this time,
Firfox(Persian) with Farsi GUI is in last process to be execute with our free
service for Middle Easter people such as AnonyMizer(Anti-Filter)toolbars in
search panel of Firefox.

Finally, We invite everyone to join us to finish it in XPI or EXE or some other
that you thinkin about. Tell me your answer at [e-mail] with subject
named Joining request and then I send you message included ways to translation
and creation in non-Unicode area with your parts. Of course, your names will be
place in Project as Co-workers.

Have good time.
Iman Seyfi

Comment 12

[Behnam Esfahbod [:zwnj]]

(In reply to comment #11)
> It's a talk from this bug surfing owner, Holly to see some interested guy
> there.

I'm the co-ordinator of Persian localization project since 2002.  If you was
looking for someone, you could contact co-ordinators at l10n/mlp_status.html first.

> I know there is more than one country will use Persian service of Mozilla
> firefox but it's our rights to ensure our country Iran as leader Farsi 
> speakers in world.

We don't translate Mozilla to _ensure our country is leader_.  We want to
translate Mozilla to Persian for Persian people.  If we set the local as
*fa_IR*, just Iranian users can use the package, but if we set it as *fa*, more
Persian-language users may use our package.  We can branch it when needed.

> However, I'd like to share this project with others who likes help our
> team to do this process better. I don't know more about Sharif Univ,
> nevertheless, it's cleared that this project was started at first time of
> mozilla and it's done for 70% to be a package.

Good.  Would you give a sample of your translated work?  If you don't know
anything about The FarsiWeb Project at Sharif Univ, then you haven't see
http://farsiweb.info/ and I affraid that you use Microsoft's keyboard layout and
buggy fonts and i.e. used ARABIC YEH instead of Persian one (ARABIC FARSI YEH).

> Therefore, you need to play with some way to understand more about CVS or some
> equal things.We use a new way to make Firefox localized without professional
> knowledge.

But we have the professional knowledge and prefer to maintain translated files
in a good way.  So we use a center glossary and many error-checking tools and of
course versioning systems.  It's not hard for us.  Also we do hackerish jobs for
our non-hacker translators.

> At this time, Firfox(Persian) with Farsi GUI is in last process to be execute
> with our free service for Middle Easter people such as 
> nonyMizer(Anti-Filter)toolbars in search panel of Firefox.

Of course you CANNOT put such a toolbar in Mozilla's official build.  BTW, good
job to translate such a useful toolbar for Iranian people.  Thanks.

BTW, are you from Anonymizer, Inc. or Voice of America?


Hedayat:  Have you done any new work on Mozilla/Firefox translation?

Comment 13

[Axel Hecht]

Let's clear some things up:

An anonymizer toolbar will not make it into an official Mozilla build.
Please check the l10n trademarks policy that Pawell pasted.

Anyone can start working on a localization of Mozilla products, as far as 
they're following the license, and adhere to the trademark policies.
Official Mozilla builds will be produced by the Mozilla Foundation, following
their guidelines. Only those builds may be called Mozilla Firefox and only these
builds may contain the official artwork.
These builds will be made off the sources in the mozilla.org CVS repository,
contributed by the official localization team.
This team will be chosen by mlp-staff based on a review of submitted source
localizations.

We do invite separate efforts in any locale to join effort. This is much easier,
if you do not flame and blame each other. Thus, while I do understand that 
you're participating in Mozilla with all your heart, please ease your temper 
here.

Comment 14

[Behnam Esfahbod [:zwnj]]

(In reply to comment #13)
> We do invite separate efforts in any locale to join effort. This is much
> easier, if you do not flame and blame each other. Thus, while I do understand
> that you're participating in Mozilla with all your heart, please ease your
> temper here.

Thanks Pike.  But we had such a discussion with Mohsen Sajjadi at 2002 too.  We
continued some bug reports and patches and he did some translation, but he left
in a couple months.  Now after making a glossory and a great traslation
experience (more than 40'000 phrases of GNOME project) we want to continue
translation of Mozilla.  The quality of translation is important for us.  We
cannot let Persian translation have an ARABIC YEH after our work for more than 4
years to correct Microsoft's fault.  We have a QA system for translations and we
appreciate any already done translation and like to help to make it better...

Comment 15

[Hedayat Vatankhah]

> Hedayat:  Have you done any new work on Mozilla/Firefox translation?
> 

Oh, no! I was (fortunately) waiting to see how things go on here. I've setup a
complete po directory for firefox translation (using translate-toolkit) and
finally I could translate some words and make an xpi to install for firefox, but
I didn't any translation work.
The translation parties held in Sharif univ. are interesting; but I haven't
participated to them yet, as I'm not living in Tehran. (Also it seems that they
need invitation, based on what I've recieved from the GNOME translation team
someday).
Finally, I won't be a really active in translation as I like programming much
more; so I think I won't be a good coworker in a translation team! 

Hopefully, I will hear much more about firefox translation from you. Also I'm
interested to know what will you do with the firefox problem with accelerators
in RTL texts?

Thanks,
Hedayat

Comment 16

[Behnam Esfahbod [:zwnj]]

(In reply to comment #15)
> The translation parties held in Sharif univ. are interesting; but I haven't
> participated to them yet, as I'm not living in Tehran. (Also it seems that
> they need invitation, based on what I've recieved from the GNOME translation
> team someday).

Of course you are invited.  You can join us at #mozilla-fa on irc.mozilla.org. 
BTW, we'll be happy to see you.

> Finally, I won't be a really active in translation as I like programming much
> more; so I think I won't be a good coworker in a translation team! 

Make a try.  Translation party is for people who are not a translator. ;)

> Also I'm interested to know what will you do with the firefox problem with 
> accelerators in RTL texts?

A Persian desktop doesn't need any latin accelerator key.  We'll reselect
accelerators, as we did in GNOME; e.i. "_parvandeh" (with PEH as accel) for File
menu.  Also Microsoft did it in it's Persian langpack of Office 2003.


Cheers.

Comment 17

[Hedayat Vatankhah]

(In reply to comment #16)
>
> Of course you are invited.  You can join us at #mozilla-fa on irc.mozilla.org. 
> BTW, we'll be happy to see you.

Thanks a lot

> 
> Make a try.  Translation party is for people who are not a translator. ;)
> 

Sounds interesting!

> A Persian desktop doesn't need any latin accelerator key.  We'll reselect
> accelerators, as we did in GNOME; e.i. "_parvandeh" (with PEH as accel) for File
> menu.  Also Microsoft did it in it's Persian langpack of Office 2003.
> 

Yes, I've done that too. But the problem is (at least in Firefox 1.0) that when
you use "_parvandeh" PEH is accel but the underline appears under HEH!
 
> 
> Cheers.

Comment 18

[Iman Seyfi]

Hey Guys,

The official web site of FireFox Persian located under domains as
http://mozilla-persian.rules.it and http://firefox.32bit.at
You can see our past part and join us through that location.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Someone asked me about permissions and rights to make a change in FireFox built,
that I like to answer them as it that I don't wanna to break a term, it's just a
way to make some things wannable for FireFox users. However, our guys can obtain
permissions to do if it needed! Of course, I don't know what’s your point about
translating!? Because you informed some information about Font appearance and
keyboard layout... that they not point to this project, we don’t need specified
keyboard layout and fonts!! If you think it need, I believe you made mistake
about FirFox localized project. Nevertheless, I'll be happy to know more about
how you think about. Hence, I found out you have good communication with some
teachers of University of Cambridge as Dr. McKay, its well, say hello to him
because I was graduated from University of Cambridge. Finally, I'll be glad to
have contact more about AnonyMizer and our permission rights about...

Nice day.
Iman Seyfi

Comment 19

[Iman Seyfi]

Attachment: The Localization setup file for FireFox in Farsi

Dear Guys,

This is beta version of FireFox 1.6 GUI in Persian(Farsi)that is released only
for researching goals and it's not a final release of our Farsi GUI. This setup
file is depend on your windows version as right as win2K or win2k3(winXp or
whistler comi known as longhorn)which is enabled to support complex scripts.the
fa-IR compact file will use this facilities. However, this new version is
created with a Language Mode Chooser program that will be install in the right
folder of Mozilla in your start menu. this application let you to choose one
between Farsi and English language mode. Try it and let me to know your idea
about.

Iman Seyfi
http://mozilla-persian.rules.it

Comment 20

[Behnam Esfahbod [:zwnj]]

Persian localization files are on the l10n cvs under the fa directory.  What's needed to get the official Persian builds?

Comment 21

[Iman Seyfi]

(In reply to comment #20)
> Persian localization files are on the l10n cvs under the fa directory.  What's
> needed to get the official Persian builds?
> 

Thank you dear friend for your assist. Please keep me update.
Iman Seyfi

Comment 22

[Iman Seyfi]

Dear Behnam, 

Please spend a few hours to make this official build done together. I think that it's too bad that there is no Persian language in the list of Firefox released localization yet. We should to do this urgent because you know. As you know we release a non-official version of Firefox 1.5 and it was good through clients vote so Please make a direct contact with me and then we can do workgroup.

Thanks for your concern,
Iman seyfi

Comment 23

[Behnam Esfahbod [:zwnj]]

Please don't mess with bug status, when you don't know what you are doing.

--> REOPEN

Comment 24

[Behnam Esfahbod [:zwnj]]

Comment on attachment 196702 [details]
The Localization setup file for FireFox in Farsi

Useless for Mozilla Project.

Comment 25

[Behnam Esfahbod [:zwnj]]

*** This bug has been marked as a duplicate of 350764 ***

Comment 26

[Behnam Esfahbod [:zwnj]]

Iman, your translation was useless, because you used SPACE instead of ZWNJ:
- So, you didn't follow Persian Academy guidelines;
- Firefox < 2.0b2 has lots of bug with ZWNJ, so you couldn't fix your translation.
I didn't check you translation more.

You never provided files for CVS, so you cannot get CVS access.  If you want to work on l10n CVS, you need to provide a good translation, on CVS format.

BTW, now you have two ways:
- Read Persian Academy Guideline, start to clean up your own translation, update it to mozilla1.8 branch or trunk, convert it CVS format, and then file another registration bug.
- Read Persian Academy Guideline, start to work on currect l10n/fa, send patches for CVS on bugzilla, and get direct CVS access if you are good at this stuff.

Comment 27

[Axel Hecht [:Pike]]

Easy folks.

Iman, please take a close look at the Mozilla trademarks policies, I'm afraid the site you reference here is violating quite a few of those.

Behnam, there was no need to do this plethora of persian registration bugs. Registration is done, you're owner, and it doesn't matter who opened this bug or the other. Iman offered cooperation, and the two of you are invited to do this in bugzilla within the component to be created.
That said, I should have probably just resolved this bug when editing the wiki.

To make my decision process transparent, I recognize that Behman is deeply involved in a bunch of issues surrounding the i18n problems that arise with arabic layout and RTL, filing bugs for those issues, too. That makes him the right partner in getting the best possible user experience for people speaking Persian with Firefox. I nor anybody else inside the Mozilla community can really evaluate the quality of the translation process, we'll just keep our ears open on user feedback there, and trust in the owner to incorporate constructive criticism.

Comment 28

[Iman Seyfi]

(In reply to comment #27)
> Easy folks.
> 
> Iman, please take a close look at the Mozilla trademarks policies, I'm afraid
> the site you reference here is violating quite a few of those.
> 
> Behnam, there was no need to do this plethora of persian registration bugs.
> Registration is done, you're owner, and it doesn't matter who opened this bug
> or the other. Iman offered cooperation, and the two of you are invited to do
> this in bugzilla within the component to be created.
> That said, I should have probably just resolved this bug when editing the wiki.
> 
> To make my decision process transparent, I recognize that Behman is deeply
> involved in a bunch of issues surrounding the i18n problems that arise with
> arabic layout and RTL, filing bugs for those issues, too. That makes him the
> right partner in getting the best possible user experience for people speaking
> Persian with Firefox. I nor anybody else inside the Mozilla community can
> really evaluate the quality of the translation process, we'll just keep our
> ears open on user feedback there, and trust in the owner to incorporate
> constructive criticism.
> 

Dear Axel,

Thanks for your comment. Actually that was my second offer for Behnam but I don’t know why he is making bad sign!

He had wrote about Persian Academy guidelines that I don’t know it, I am graduated from Cambridge University and so I tried to ask it from my friend in Iranian university but nobody known Persian Academy guidelines. I think we need to face with facts not our dreams!

I know that our translation is not CVS based in whole but behnam just looking to make break because we released a non-official localization with no help in little work but behnam just tried to get the access to our right during our works.

Speaking is so rest and easy! We need to make a work not speak. However, please help me that what we need to do about Mozilla Copyrights and our localization.

Thanks for your concern,
Iman 

Comment 29

[Behdad Esfahbod]

Iman,

Behnam and the team he's working with have translated the entire GNOME desktop.  With me, we all have been patching a lot of free software projects to improve Persian support since at least 2000.

The Persian Academy, known in Iran as "farhangestaan" is the body in charge of defining and maintaining the official language of Iran.  See http://www.persianacademy.ir/

For official translations of software like GNOME and Firefox, we bind ourselves to follow their guidelines.  It's not like we particularly like them (and I personally don't.)  They have style guidelines, as well as translations for a lot of technical terms.  You can buy their publications from their bookstore on 3rd avenue, Bokharest St.  Unfortunately I'm not residing in Iran at this time, so I cannot offer any help.

Behnam, please be more cooperative.

Comment 30

[Behdad Esfahbod]

An online version of the style guidelines is available at:

  http://www.persianacademy.net/fa/dastourkhat.aspx

Ignoring the problem with Yeh and Heh characters, it looks fine.

Comment 31

[Iman Seyfi]

(In reply to comment #30)
> An online version of the style guidelines is available at:
> 
>   http://www.persianacademy.net/fa/dastourkhat.aspx
> 
> Ignoring the problem with Yeh and Heh characters, it looks fine.
> 

Dear Behdad,

Actually, I am so glad that I am informed about an Academic organization about my Father Language in home Country but I can’t understand how can I trust him when this organization web site not in their line right now! This web site has more YA and HE character in Arabic symbols!

In facts, I am not an amateur or a bit of programming as if, you may downloaded a XP Persian GUI for your machine so I have to inform you that this GUI created in our university in United Kingdom and American University in DUBAI Cooperatively, we know our lessons!

However, Please let me to know our mistakes in Firefox non-official Farsi Localization whenever we can correct it shortly and please kindly note that our last translation has no YA and HE in Arabic format and also it’s created for Firefox 1.5+. This version is not attached in to this page but we will do it timely fashion.

Thanks for your comment,
Iman

Comment 32

[Behdad Esfahbod]

(In reply to comment #31)

> Dear Behdad,
> 
> Actually, I am so glad that I am informed about an Academic organization about
> my Father Language in home Country but I can�t understand how can I trust him
> when this organization web site not in their line right now! This web site has
> more YA and HE character in Arabic symbols!

This is not as simple as you imagine.  The website uses Arabic Yeh and Heh because of a long chain of events that has caused many many Iranian websites to do that.  In short, because:

  1) Microsoft's fonts had a wrong glyphs for medial form of Persian Yeh since 2000 and until last year.

  2) Many Iranian-made Persian Windows systems (!!!) have Persian Yeh and Heh on the code points for the Arbaic ones.  So, the creators of those pages most probably don't see the Arabic glyphs as we do.

Sad, but true.

> In facts, I am not an amateur or a bit of programming as if, you may downloaded
> a XP Persian GUI for your machine so I have to inform you that this GUI created
> in our university in United Kingdom and American University in DUBAI
> Cooperatively, we know our lessons!

Great.  We know our lessons too :).

> However, Please let me to know our mistakes in Firefox non-official Farsi
> Localization whenever we can correct it shortly and please kindly note that our
> last translation has no YA and HE in Arabic format and also it�s created for
> Firefox 1.5+. This version is not attached in to this page but we will do it
> timely fashion.

I don't have Windows on my machine, nor do I have access to any Windows system.  I can review translations in plain text though.  Last time I talked to Behnam about this, he told me that your translations don't use the U+200C ZERO-WIDTH NON-JOINER at all and uses space instead.  ZWNJ should be used in places like "mi-ravam" or "khaane-haa" in the place that I've put dash.  I've heard that the Persian interface for Windows XP has the same problem too.

> Thanks for your comment,
> Iman


Regards,
behdad

Comment 33

[Axel Hecht [:Pike]]

Folks, a registration bug is not the right place to discuss these issues.
Feel free to file corresponding bugs in the fa / Persian component, and if you want Mozilla to watch this, CC me.

These are implementation issues, for the most part. As far as the communication goes, you guys are eager to work it out, and that's the important message for a registration bug. Everything else should go in separate bugs. Or open up a thread on the mozilla.dev.l10n newsgroup.

Comment 34

[Iman Seyfi]

(In reply to comment #33)
> Folks, a registration bug is not the right place to discuss these issues.
> Feel free to file corresponding bugs in the fa / Persian component, and if you
> want Mozilla to watch this, CC me.
> 
> These are implementation issues, for the most part. As far as the communication
> goes, you guys are eager to work it out, and that's the important message for a
> registration bug. Everything else should go in separate bugs. Or open up a
> thread on the mozilla.dev.l10n newsgroup.
> 


You're right, we値l only continue about localization status there.

Thank you,
Iman

Comment 35

[Iman Seyfi]

Attachment: IR-fa localization for on the fly Installation

This is new Firefox Localization for Farsi spokers. This localization named IR-fa as our rights creating. Bahram Maravandi is the Finalizer of this project. The Ff 2.0 will be comin up soon. To Install this Localization please get last update of Quick Local Switcher add-ons from Mozilla offical web site (https://addons.mozilla.org/firefox/1333/)and then try to install this on the fly.

Comment 36

[Axel Hecht [:Pike]]

Comment on attachment 243838 [details]
IR-fa localization for on the fly Installation 

No idea what those flags should indicate, cleaning them up.

Note, instaling from bugzilla won't work without changing your settings, which may be something you don't want to do. Or at least keep.