335289 - After update warn users specifically of firewall problem

Status: RESOLVED WONTFIX

(Firefox :: General, enhancement, P5)

Description

[VanillaMozilla]

See bug 308979.  Many users refuse to believe a firewall causes failure to connect after an update, and blame Firefox.  For some, no amount of persuasion suffices.

If the program is smart enough to detect a connection failure, the user is more likely to believe a well-placed error message than random users on a support forum.  After an update is completed the warning should state that the firewall configuration may need editing and that the user should consult the firewall help documentation (or preferably, Firefox documentation -- see bugs 308979 and 308982).

Comment 1

[Jo Hermans]

See also bug 308982.

It was previously decided in bug 270084, that the warning on the XUL error page was enough. But users are really stubborn, and fail to even read that. Would extra info in the help-pages really help ?

Comment 2

[VanillaMozilla]

This bug is specifically about notifying users that a problem with the connection WAS DETECTED.  That is much more specific than a generic reminder during update or one item of a list of possible problems.  Specific information is less likely to be ignored.

It was also suggested as a preferred alternative to bug 308979, which blocks bug 308982.  (See bug 308979, comment 4.)

If you don't mind, can we just keep this one open for a while for consideration and see where the chips fall?  It's another option.

By the way, confusion is not limited to general users.  In bug 270084, comment 12, Asa wrote:  "Why, if a Firewall was configured to work with Firefox, does the user have to reconfigure it to work with the updated Firefox?"  Some of the replies were equally confused.  This is one of the points that confuses users.

Comment 3

[VanillaMozilla]

Here's what I think the message should say:

===============================================
> Firefox cannot detect an Internet connection.

> If your other Internet programs are working, then Firefox is probably being blocked by one or more firewall programs.

> This new version of Firefox is treated by firewalls as a completely new program, and it will be blocked from using the Internet until the firewall is configured to allow access.
===============================================

The last statement is the one that users do not understand and often don't accept.  It's important to give them this information exactly when they need it, in an authoritative form.

Comment 4

[Mike Beltzner [:beltzner, not reading bugmail]]

The key difference here is the idea of "after update". Immediately after update, the most common reason for Firefox being unable to access the web is an overenthusiastic firewall application. In that particular (and detectable!) context, we shouldn't throw up the same error message that a user might see when their network is timing out ... we should provide tailored assistance geared at completing the update.

The resulting message might say something helpful like:

---
Your update was successfully applied, but Firefox can't access the Internet

  Some firewall programs may require you to give the updated version
  of Firefox permission to access the Internet. Are you using:

         * _Norton Internet Protect_
         * _ZoneAlarm_
         * _etc_

---

The links could go to documentation about how to modify the firewalls (if that's well understood and easy to encapsulate). The text probably needs a swizzle, too, but as expressed captures the tone I think we should be aiming for. Not blamecasting, not making a mountain out of a small problem, but helpfully trying to get the user back on the web.

Comment 5

[VanillaMozilla]

(In reply to comment #4)
> Your update was successfully applied, but Firefox can't access the Internet
> 
>   Some firewall programs may require you to give the updated version
>   of Firefox permission to access the Internet. Are you using:
> 
>          * _Norton Internet Protect_
>          * _ZoneAlarm_
>          * _etc_

I like it!  Providing the assistance is a little tricky, but this points the user squarely at the problem in an elegant way.

Comment 6

[Nick Thomas [:nthomas] (UTC+12)]

The Mozillazine Knowledgebase has some firewall specific information, and is the standard document when providing support in #firefox.

http://kb.mozillazine.org/Error_loading_any_website

Comment 7

[Dave Townsend [:mossop] (PTO until July 20)]

*** Bug 337487 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***

Comment 8

[Robert Strong (they/them - no direct email)]

phil, not sure exactly how the installer is suppose to handle app updates?

Comment 9

[Robert Strong (they/them - no direct email)]

Firefox -> General for now. We may choose to have different components (e.g. software update and installer) provide this message. From what I have read from mconnor he is planning on having the app detect the availability of a connection and go from there.

Comment 10

[Mike Beltzner [:beltzner, not reading bugmail]]

taking, adding as a responsibility to drive for Firefox 2.

Comment 11

[Chris Beard]

We're also working on surfacing guided tutorials and documentation on mozilla.com/support for this, cc'ing Paul Kim who is coordinating this effort.

Comment 12

[Phil Ringnalda (:philor)]

Guess from the context that beltzer wanted to assign this to himself, not to poor overloaded nobody@.

Comment 13

[Mike Beltzner [:beltzner, not reading bugmail]]

Paul, any news/word on how this is going? I'd love to get this page included in the product to help users with this issue.

If that won't be ready, I'll whip up a minimal page like our other error pages; mconnor, what's involved in detecting this special case? Hard? Risky?

Comment 14

[Mike Connor [:mconnor]]

I don't think its hard, since its reusing the online/offline detection to detect active connections where we're getting network errors.

Biesi, would it be hard to add an error type that covers this case?

Comment 15

[Christian :Biesinger (don't email me, ping me on IRC)]

what's "this case"?

Comment 16

[Mike Beltzner [:beltzner, not reading bugmail]]

(In reply to comment #15)
> what's "this case"?

Unable to Connect network error immediately after applying an update. We'd want that special case to be a unableToConnectAfterUpdate error.

Comment 17

[Mike Connor [:mconnor]]

Biesi, more specifically, unable to connect, even though we can tell via the ioService that we appear to have a connection.

We're moving this out, but its still a nice-to-have.

Comment 18

[VanillaMozilla]

If it helps any in developing a generic message, the Knowledge Base article on firewalls has been revised considerably and moved here:  http://kb.mozillazine.org/Firewalls .  Considerable effort has been made to steer users clear of typical problems.  On the down side, the content is dynamic, and some of the information may (or may not) be out of date because of manufacturers' changes.

Comment 19

[gwtc]

for those who posted links to a website, well, those are fine and dandy, but they're useless to those who cannot connect.  IMO, I think a popup saying: "If you cannot connect, then open your Firewall, remove the FF/TB/SM entry, then try again." Or some similar message.

Comment 20

[Justin Dolske [:Dolske]]

Is this a Windows-only bug? I suppose (in theory) it could happen on any platform, but I've only seen it happening for Windows users.

Also, from them reports I've encountered online it seems lots of users are unaware they're running a firewall. Conversations often seem to go like this:

"Help! Firefox stopped working after an update!"
Are you running a firewall?
"No."
Are you sure?
"Yes."
Really, REALLY sure?
"Yes."
Go double check.
"Oh, I'm running a firewall. Thanks."

Helping them to determine if they're using a firewall might be a good thing.

Comment 21

[VanillaMozilla]

(In reply to comment #20)
> Is this a Windows-only bug? I suppose (in theory) it could happen on any
> platform, but I've only seen it happening for Windows users.

Maybe.
 
> Also, from them reports I've encountered online it seems lots of users are
> unaware they're running a firewall. Conversations often seem to go like this:

Unfortunately, many users are not nearly so easy to convince.  Sometimes they're running multiple firewalls.  Sometimes it takes pages and pages of troll posts, and some of them just never get it.

Comment 22

[Mike Beltzner [:beltzner, not reading bugmail]]

This missed Firefox 2, but I'd like to get it for Firefox 3. Better online/offline detection code should help us here, too.

Comment 23

[:glob ✱]

you can use the "windows firewall api" to detect if a firewall is installed:

http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/library/aa366442.aspx

> I think a popup saying: "If you cannot connect, then open your Firewall,
> remove the FF/TB/SM entry, then try again."

we can automate this step as well with the windows firewall api.  hrm, what if the upgrader did this to force the firewall to prompt the user again.

Comment 24

[VanillaMozilla]

It's not actually a Windows-only bug.  I do remember a Mac user with a firewall problem.  He went away mad that we didn't have answers for Mac.

However, the problem is mostly Windows, because
(1) most users have Windows and
(2) non-Windows OSs may have a smaller incidence of problems, and maybe also an easier time getting help.

Comment 25

[Jason Barnabe (np)]

Could a similar method be used for users who have blocked the loopback connection?

Comment 26

[VanillaMozilla]

(In reply to comment #23)
> you can use the "windows firewall api" to detect if a firewall is installed:
> 
> http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/library/aa366442.aspx

Are you sure?  It looks like it applies only to the Windows firewall.  Looks like this is going to miss Firefox 3 and 4 too.  ;-)

Comment 28

[Chris Ilias [:cilias]]

I guess this is the Sumo article you want:
<http://support.mozilla.com/kb/Cannot+connect+after+upgrading+Firefox>

It also links to four other articles.

Comment 29

[VanillaMozilla]

The problem is evolving with the continued development of Internet security suites.  Other programs, such as Kaspersky Antivirus and Symantec Antivirus are taking on firewall-like properties and effectively blocking access after updates.    There is more information on this in the MozillaZine Knowledge Base, here:  http://kb.mozillazine.org/Firewalls -- especially in the introduction and section on pitfalls -- and in links in that article.

There are other problems too.  For example, Kaspersky software continues to block access when the firewall is specifically shut down.  It can also block DNS on an application-specific basis.  (See http://kb.mozillazine.org/Firewalls#Kaspersky_firewall .)  These problems have been confirmed by numerous users in the support forum.

It's a continuing struggle to inform users.  Many of them are unaware of the pitfalls, and still require persuasion.

I don't know if this complicates the patch, but I think the concept needs to be expanded from "firewall" to "Internet security software".

Comment 30

[Samuel Sidler (old account; do not CC)]

My gut is, this missed 3.1, which is really a shame because of the issues that we've seen (throughout Firefox's lifetime) with firewalls after upgrading.

Any update here from either of the Mikes?

Comment 31

[Samuel Sidler (old account; do not CC)]

See also bug 308982, of which this is probably a dupe. (But we should dupe the other way?)

Comment 32

[[:Cww]]

Don't forget about the times when the user has trial software that expired.  Often the blocks will still be there but 1) they won't update due to lack of subscription 2) the uninstaller is broken due to lack of subscription.  Sadness all around.

Comment 33

[Mike Beltzner [:beltzner, not reading bugmail]]

(In reply to comment #30)
> My gut is, this missed 3.1, which is really a shame because of the issues that
> we've seen (throughout Firefox's lifetime) with firewalls after upgrading.
> 
> Any update here from either of the Mikes?

Your gut is right.

Comment 34

[VanillaMozilla]

(In reply to comment #31)
> See also bug 308982, of which this is probably a dupe. (But we should dupe the
> other way?)

This is not really a dupe, I think.  See comments 1 and 2.

Comment 35

[[:Cww]]

Common issue that seems to have fallen off the radar... any chance for 3.6?

Comment 36

[Mike Beltzner [:beltzner, not reading bugmail]]

Nope. It would require a large amount of strings, for a start. If we can get a design sorted, though, we should try to tackle for Firefox 3.7.

Comment 37

[Dietrich Ayala (:dietrich)]

Didn't block the last four major releases, and shouldn't hold this one back either. It'd be great if someone stepped up with a patch, would definitely consider taking it.

Is there a way for us to get more information on how many people this might be affecting?

Comment 38

[Matthias Versen [:Matti]]

Is this still a common issue ?
I don't see many firewall related issues recently

Comment 39

[[:Cww]]

Because of the way we do slower rollouts and work with AV vendors these days, this has definitely gone down. The question is whether on the first day with the first batch of users if we still see connectivity issues caused by firewalls (as opposed the still-occuring concerns with AV extensions not working).

I'll keep an extra eye out for these concerns in Firefox 18 but I suspect that this can be wontfix'd.

CCing Tyler who will help look into it as well.

Comment 40

[Mike Beltzner [:beltzner, not reading bugmail]]

I am definitely not the droid this bug is looking for.

Comment 41

[VanillaMozilla]

OK I'll pull the plug.  I won't be offended if someone has evidence to the contrary and wants to reopen, but we really don't see much of this any more.