481143 - Change default value of mailnews.default_sort_order from 1 (asc) to 2 (desc)

Status: RESOLVED FIXED

(Thunderbird :: Preferences, enhancement)

Description

[crimle]

User-Agent:       Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; de; rv:1.9.0.6) Gecko/2009011913 Firefox/3.0.6
Build Identifier: Thunderbird 3.0b2 Beta

The default sort order of the mailbox view is upside down. 

Reproducible: Always

Steps to Reproduce:
1. Create a new mail account
2. Download mail

Actual Results:  
Your mailbox will show the oldest mail in top position and the newest mail in the last position to the bottom

Expected Results:  
The newest mail should be in top position as the default sort order.

Comment 1

[Magnus Melin [:mkmelin]]

Reading mail in the order they came in is logical, no?

Many web mails do it of course, but that's more due to technical limitations.

Comment 2

[crimle]

Well, I don't know any mail client that sorts mail in reverse order, apart from Thunderbird. When users open their mailbox, they always want to have the new mails on top. Otherwise, they would have to scroll down. You agree?

Comment 3

[Magnus Melin [:mkmelin]]

There are probably arguments for both ways, and for different situations different ways could be preferred, but if the mails are any kind of information flow, reading them chronologically is the only way to follow what's happening.

Comment 4

[crimle]

I quite agree but nevertheless I think that consistency is what the majority of the users want. The newest item is always on top, for example in discussion forums, in a mail itself (the answer is above the quote) not to mention other mail clients like Outlook, Outlook Express, Windows Mail, Webmail, ... Why should the Thunderbird mailbox view be an exception? If you have quite a number of mails in your mailbox, you don't even see new mails if they are on the bottom of the list unless you scroll down. My last argument: people who used a different mail client and begin using Thunderbird are confused. I had complaints like "New mails seem to come in, but they are invisible". Resolution "Scroll down or change the default sort order". This little problem could easily be eliminated if Thunderbird came with the "normal" default sort order.

Comment 6

[crimle]

*** Bug 437139 is as a duplicate of this bug. ***
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=437139

Comment 7

[crimle]

I Wish I could delete Comment #6 becaus I copied it into the wrong bug. Sorry.

Comment 8

[[:Aureliano Buendía]]

Probably could be closed as wontfix

Comment 9

[crimle]

I can not force the TB team to fix anything. But I think you miss a chance to make it eassier for users to get friendly with TB. I do not know one single mail client in the world where the default sort order of the mailbox view is upside down.

Comment 10

[Wayne Mery (:wsmwk)]

can you reproduce this using a current version of thunderbird?

if you are unable to reproduce, please close by setting stats to resolved, and resolution to WORKSFORME or another appropriate setting.

If you are able to reproduce, add new details, and a testcase if one does not already exist in the bug report.

Comment 11

[Joshua Cranmer [:jcranmer]]

RESOLVED INCOMPLETE due to lack of response to last question. If you feel this change was made in error please respond to this bug with your reasons why.

Comment 12

[crimle]

I just installed Thunderbird 11.0.1 (a complete new installation, not an update) and determined that this bug reported on 2009-03-02 can still be reproduced. Well, it is not bug in the narrowest sense but a "request for improvement". Thank you.

Comment 13

[Javi Rueda :javirid]

> There are probably arguments for both ways, and for different situations
> different ways could be preferred, but if the mails are any kind of
> information flow, reading them chronologically is the only way to follow
> what's happening.

If user removes old messages, that's ok, because there will be shown a few days. But, if user has never removed them, it would be needed a long scroll to see latest messages.

Comment 14

[Javi Rueda :javirid]

Attachment: patch

Simple patch. A decision has not been made about if this should be changed but poster is still requesting it.

I tried to find a way to create some kind of experiment in Test Pilot so we could collect data to help make this decision based on real use of the application. I was unable to find documentation about how to do this. The project seems inactive, as it is stated on their page in Mozilla Labs.

Then, I would like Magnus to review this change, switch it to someone that could or even cancel it -again, based on the fact that a decision has not been made-.

Thank you.

Comment 15

[Magnus Melin [:mkmelin]]

Comment on attachment 731665 [details] [diff] [review]
patch

Review of attachment 731665 [details] [diff] [review]:
-----------------------------------------------------------------

Sorry, but i don't think we should change this. 
I think it could be fine if we ever get threaded on by default too though, that way you can read information in the right order.
While people are used to newest on top from the web i think they expect it to be full conversations too.

Comment 17

[Jim Porter (:squib)]

(In reply to Javi Rueda from comment #13)
> If user removes old messages, that's ok, because there will be shown a few
> days. But, if user has never removed them, it would be needed a long scroll
> to see latest messages.

Just to be clear, this isn't true. When opening a folder, Thunderbird automatically scrolls to show the newest messages, whether they're at the top or the bottom (assuming they're not sorted by, e.g., subject).

Comment 20

[D.Dancer]

As a programmer and a user, I constantly do things weird, but in many cases the user side of the brain does dominate when dealing with issues that affect the users of my software and I have to think like a user.

As a user, I expect the newest stuff on top.

Not on the bottom, scrolled into view, on top.

This is also why 99% of the mail is usually with the new replies on top when you have extended conversations with someone else, it is expected that the new information is on top and if I need to review older information, I can scroll down to view it. Not to read all the old information just to get to the new.

I find it frustrating that I cannot force ALL my folders to default to display email newest first, everything so far that I've imported to Thunderbird, or when I add a new IMAP account, the first thing I'm needing to do is to reset the sort orders.

Comment 21

[crimle]

Here is a workaround:

- Go to Tools > Options
- Select the "Advanced" panel 
- Select the "General" tab 
- Click Config Editor
- Click [I'll be careful, I promise!] to proceed. 
- Search for "mailnews.default_news_sort_order" then change the value to "2"
- Search for "mailnews.default_sort_order" then change the value to "2"

Kind regards
Christof

Comment 22

[Timon Zielonka]

Thanks. Works for me, but what I most often do is "show me the latest emails". So additional to the sort order a move to the newest emails with a double click on the field "Date" would be very useful. Or add this to "Quick Filter" toolbar. Does anyone have an entry point, where this could be added in the code?

Comment 23

[Ikey Doherty]

Attachment: Bug 481143: Default to descending order for all emails, r=leftmostcat

With this change we default to sorting by the newest messages first, as we already
opt to date-ordering. This is a far more intuitive use rather than having to look
through potentially thousands of emails to get to the newest email when first setting
up Thunderbird.

Comment 24

[Ryan Lee Sipes]

Let's get this merged, long overdue. Has Ryan's seal of approval.

Comment 25

[Pulsebot]

Pushed by [e-mail]:
https://hg.mozilla.org/comm-central/rev/0cc7f5495028
Default to descending order for all emails, r=leftmostcat

Comment 26

[Geoff Lankow (:darktrojan)]

I've backed this out, as many tests are broken by it. As a hacky fix, you could specify the old value of the pref in the test manifests, but outside of mail/test/browser I'd rather you fixed the tests.

Backout: https://hg.mozilla.org/comm-central/rev/b02cdafc35e8161df6aa1dc8dfc67d8077548132

Comment 29

[Alfred Peters [:infofrommozilla]]

(In reply to Ikey Doherty from comment #23)

Created attachment 9327119 [details]
Bug 481143: Default to descending order for all emails, r=leftmostcat

Sorry for the stupid question, but is it intentional to change the sort order only for emails - but not for newsgroups?

The fix will attract as many opponents as supporters. But then to handle both differently is quite strange.

Comment 30

[crimle]

I quite agree that the same sort order should be applied to both emails and newsgroups. I am unable to comprehend why anybody should oppose to the sort order «By date DESCENDING». I reckon that this is the most natural way of looking at the mailbox for the vast majority of people all over the world. I do not know any mail client nor email app that sorts mail in ascending order, apart from Thunderbird. When users open their mailbox, they always want to have the new mails on top. Otherwise, they would have to scroll down. Provided they have more than 50 emails in their mailbox (I do not know anyone having less than 50 emails in the mailbox) they would not even notice that there are new unread mails in the mailbox. In my opinion this is the weirdest default setting we encounter in Thunderbird. And remarkably enough it has been existing for so many years.

Comment 31

[Alfred Peters [:infofrommozilla]]

That shouldn't be any objections from me. I'm totally on your side. But in my experience there are always users who are against a change.

Comment 32

[Alessandro Castellani [:aleca]]

Gently snatching this since I played with a patch last week and I think I got all the tests figured out.

Comment 33

[Alessandro Castellani [:aleca]]

Attachment: Bug 481143 - Update the default sorting order to descending for new users. r=#thunderbird-reviewers

Comment 34

[Pulsebot]

Pushed by [e-mail]:
https://hg.mozilla.org/comm-central/rev/659630a7bc1d
Update the default sorting order to descending for new users. r=leftmostcat

Comment 35

[Magnus Melin [:mkmelin]]

mailnews/base/test/unit/test_accountMigration.js is failing

Comment 36

[Magnus Melin [:mkmelin]]

Backout: https://hg.mozilla.org/comm-central/rev/55a4464833d9273b60e020a223820ad684f5242e

Comment 37

[Alessandro Castellani [:aleca]]

Letting this ride the current daily and beta and not uplifting for 115.
This changes a lot of tests and a lot of code and it's not worth the hustle of 115 patching.

Comment 38

[Pulsebot]

Pushed by [e-mail]:
https://hg.mozilla.org/comm-central/rev/856474b5e239
Update the default sorting order to descending for new users. r=babolivier,leftmostcat