As you might have seen in the newsgroups or on the Mozilla blog, there's a couple of changes to search engines planned for the 4.0 release for en-US: <http://groups.google.com/group/mozilla.dev.l10n/msg/81073d8d67e1c4c3>. We would like to use this opportunity to review the current productization setup for Lithuanian and make any changes that you think will be good for our users. What is a productization review? ================================ Here's what we're interested in: * search engines, * protocol handlers, * feed readers, * live bookmark. You can see what your locale currently ships with at <http://hg.mozilla.org/l10n/l10n-src-verification/file/default/reference/browser/2.0/lt> Please take a moment and review the choice of services available by default in your locale. If there have been any new services that have recently gained popularity and that offer good value for the users, please suggest adding them to your locale. On the other hand, if there are services that lost credibility (e.g. display too many adds) or have poor user experience, consider suggesting that we remove them. If in doubt, feel free to make a suggestion and we'll look at it together. You might find the guidelines at <https://wiki.mozilla.org/L10n:Productization> and <https://wiki.mozilla.org/L10n:Firefox/Productization> helpful, too. Required changes ================ There's two things I would like to draw your attention to (if applicable): 1) if you have a google.xml file in your `searchplugins` directory, please remove it, 2) Bloglines is closing down on November 1st and we need to remove it from the feed reader options for all locales (see bug 595485). We suspect that it will make sense to move Google Reader up to the first position (if your locale has it). We will be offering technical help with this change, either in form of ready-made patches or a mass-landing by one of the l10n-drivers. If you don't think that moving Google Reader up is a good idea for your locale, please let us know! Changes in en-US and en-GB ========================== Here's the changes that we will be making in en-US and en-GB: * add Bing as the 3rd general search engine (see bug 603298), * remove Answers, * remove Creative Commons. We're making these changes in en-US and en-GB because we feel that they follow the recent market trends and user preferences in the US and the UK. We would like to go through the same thought process for your locale and see if any of these changes would make sense in Lithuanian builds as well. If you decide that implementing these changes would be in your users' best interest then please go ahead and include them in the patch you'll attach to this bug. Implementation ============== Please make suggestions for changes and attach patches that Seth, Axel or I will review. Please note that since Bing provides a global plugin which does the locale detection itself, you will only need to add "bing" to your list.txt if you decide to include it. The XML file will be automatically pulled from en-US. Once a review is granted, you can land the patch on l10n-central if your locale actively maintains it. Otherwise, please wait for further instructions which will be put in the comments of this bug and announced in mozilla.dev.l10n (we're still unsure when the branching will happen). Please do not land any changes except for the required ones (google.xml, Bloglines) on 1.9.2. If you do not wish to make any changes, let us know, and we'll only work on removing Bloglines. Thanks!
Re search engines, quoting my last comment from bug 523076 now marked as duplicate: OK, I must admit I still don't have much to say here. However, one thing I'm really positive about is what to do with Yahoo. Currently, Yahoo is promoted as the second search engine in the list, and I think it's a really bad choice, because as far as I remember, none of Yahoo's services have ever had Lithuanian localization. With this in mind, and also the fact that Google is the single most popular search engine in Lithuania, I would like to suggest to designate Wikipedia-LT as the default search engine #2. Having said all that, I think Yahoo could simply be dropped from the list. And if we really need a second generic search engine, which I doubt, maybe bing would do: at least it has a Lithuanian interface... And sadly, I don't know any reputable local search engines... Also, while writing this comment, I realised that I also want to drop answers.com from the list. I don't think many Lithuanians use this search engine. This would render the list as follows: google wikipedia-lt amazondotcom eBay creativecommons
I'd like to see a sixth plugin there and something that might provide an alternative to Google as a generic search option. In bug 523076, you mention Bing as an alternative. Still a good candidate?
Earlier today, I was a bit in hurry so I haven't finished laying out my thoughts. What I pasted in Comment #2 was before en-US changes were announced, but now I have so many thoughts that are badly structured... Let's start with some facts. Here's the new en-US list: google yahoo bing amazondotcom eBay wikipedia en-US drops answers and creativecommons and adds bing, thus totaling in 6 engines. Re answers: I'm willing to drop it too. Re creativecommons, I don't really have a strong opinion, but I don't think it's popular here. Regardless of the fact that I myself localized it some time ago, I wouldn't mind us dropping it. But OTOH, it could stay there as a subtle promotion of open web. Sadly, bug 603298 suggests no rationale for the changes it's going to make, but en-US version seems to feel like Wikipedia alone is enough to represent the openness of web that we claim to value so much. Bing... Bing's fine by me, but I would really want to be able to use the same bing.xml file as en-US does and get a localized search engine. We'll see if that works, Kev says it should. Regardless of all above, I still have a negative opinion about Yahoo because of their lack of Lithuanian localization, so I'd be very willing to drop it. With the above comments taken into account, here's a possible list for lt: google bing amazondotcom creativecommons (?) eBay lt.wikipedia Anyway, Seth, you suggested that I look at Alexa, and I looked at http://www.alexa.com/topsites/countries/LT. Here are some interesting and more or less relevant positions: #1, #3, #85 Google (lt, com, ru) #2 Facebook #4 Youtube #5 Delfi.lt #6 Yahoo! #9 Wikipedia #26 IMDB #34, #40 Ebay (com, uk) #35 Yandex #52 Maps.lt #66 Amazon.com My notes: *) Bing is not even mentioned in Alexa's Top 100. *) I should probably switch from ebay.com to ebay.co.uk. Or maybe ebay.eu? What do you think? *) Similarly, while amazon.co.uk is not in the list, I think it would probably make more sense to use that instead of .com, what do you think? *) Delfi.lt has a search engine, but I'm 99% sure that it's very unpopular unlike the site itself which is a news site. *) Yahoo! is at #6, but I also doubt that its popularity is because of the search engine. I guess it's just that many people in Lithuania are using Yahoo! mail. *) Yandex is a big surprise for me, but OTOH it's probably popular within our Russian minority and among some Lithuanians. But it doesn't have a Lithuanian interface, so I don't think I want to see it as a default option. *) Possibly good candidates: Facebook, Youtube, IMDB. But they're not used in English versions, so I assume they're somewhat unfitting. *) A good local candidate: Maps.lt. It's a map of Lithuania with a possibility to search for addresses. I would actually be willing to add it! Which again brings us to: google bing (localized version) amazon.co.uk (or amazon.com?) creativecommons (still unsure, could drop as well) eBay.co.uk (or ebay.eu? or ebay.com?) maps.lt lt.wikipedia.org I'm still not convinced I should put Bing as #2 though. I'd much rather see Wikipedia in that position. Bing could then be #3 perhaps.
Lots of good thoughts here! Thanks, Rimas. I like the idea to change to the .co.uk versions for Amazon and eBay. Seems to make sense. I am not sure how maps.lt fits *exactly*. With 7 in your list, I might suggest dropping maps.lt. That would leave you with 6 plugins: google bing amazon.co.uk creativecommons (still unsure, could drop as well) eBay.co.uk lt.wikipedia.org But, it seems like CC should be dropped. I don't know, I am torn. Is maps.lt a good fit? Would it be considered specific interest search?
I'm not sure, that's why I'm just laying out my thoughs without much conclusions. Maybe it could fit, maybe not... I use the site myself from time to time, it's really useful when you want to go somewhere you're not completely sure where. :) It's a good map, but that's about it (though they have introduced more functionality than just address search lately). I could ask a few people/users about whether maps.lt is a good idea or not. But that would be a very small amount of votes. Also, after testing bing.xml, I again became biased against Bing. They don't seem to respect my language preference, instead showing their interface in English, and only giving a direct link to switch their UI to Lithuanian (which doesn't work for the first time BTW). With that in mind, and their lack of popularity over here, I would probably want to omit Bing too, until they fix this (or until I change my mind, which, well, happens sometimes)...
maps.lt sounds like a good candidate for Fennec, although I just tested it and it wasn't easy to use (panning doesn't work). As for CC, the main reason was that we didn't feel that having them in the search plugin list was the best way we could help advance this project. Also, from the user perspective, CC's search is just a proxy to Google's search (among other services). If you go to http://search.creativecommons.org/, there's a following disclaimer there: > Please note that search.creativecommons.org is not a search engine, but rather offers convenient access to search services provided by other independent organizations. CC has no control over the results that are returned. Do not assume that the results displayed in this search portal are under a CC license. You should always verify that the work is actually under a CC license by following the link. Since there is no registration to use a CC license, CC has no way to determine what has and hasn't been placed under the terms of a CC license. If you are in doubt you should contact the copyright holder directly, or try to contact the site where you found the content. We felt that it would be better to improve the choice our users have by adding a 3rd general search engine (Bing). Since we wanted to keep the list short, removing CC (which was kind of like a second Google) seemed like a good idea. As for your concerns regarding the language detection, I tried to reproduce the issue you've been having, but to no avail. See bug 603298 comment 12.
Seth, if we have a contact with Amazon and eBay, perhaps we should ask them which version they would suggest Europeans without a dedicated version to use? I guess these questions aren't relevant to my locale only. As a check, I just opened ebay.lt and amazon.lt in two other tabs, and ended up in http://global.ebay.com/ and http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/gateway-eu respectively. Staś, thanks for CC reasonong. Now that I know the reasons, I guess I can really drop CC too (though I don't feel like buying Bing's usefullness argument either). If we solve the mystery surrounding Bing's language detection, I guess I'll add Bing too. Though for starters and if no objections arise, I think I could go with as few as five searchplugins, and commit that change whenever it's fine with you. WRT feed readers: Surprisingly, Google Reader is not localized into Lithuanian yet. But I'm fine moving it to the top position. On the other hand, there is at least one supposedly similar Lithuanian project http://www.geradiena.lt/, which is also supposedly in a vegetative state at the moment (as in, it works, but is not being updated). I'm not using any of these services, so it's hard for me to tell which is better or worse. Perhaps I should ask on our forums again.
(In reply to comment #8) > Seth, if we have a contact with Amazon and eBay, perhaps we should ask them > which version they would suggest Europeans without a dedicated version to use? > I guess these questions aren't relevant to my locale only. > > As a check, I just opened ebay.lt and amazon.lt in two other tabs, and ended up > in http://global.ebay.com/ and http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/gateway-eu > respectively. Good question, I'll check and get back to you via email.
Created attachment 483850 [details] [diff] [review] Preliminary changes This is a preliminary change showing the direction I'm most likely willing to take. It: 1) Drops Answers, Yahoo! and CreativeCommons from default search plugins, adds Bing, sets Wikipedia (lt) as the second default searchplugin, and Bing as the third 2) Drops Bloglines from the list of RSS readers 3) Swaps Gmail and Yahoo! Mail as mailto: handlers. Note: I didn't bump gecko.handlerService.defaultHandlersVersion because I'm not really introducing any new handlers, just reordering existing ones, and I'd prefer to keep that number in sync with en-US. 4) It also cleans up some space around irc:// and ircs:// handlers and reorders searchplugins alphabetically (by moving Google to the appropriate position). Staś, if you don't mind, I'd like to at least commit changes 2), 3) and 4) and add add Bing to the list whenever bing.xml is committed to the repo. Having Bing in the list should help me test Bing further (right now I have to manually copy bing.xml to my profile). We could drop the plugins later. Seth, if you want me to have the sixth searchplugin, then perhaps I should simply not drop Yahoo! yet. I just thought that perhaps my position regarding it is a bit biased and subjective. In any case, it's
Assignee: grigas → rq
I meant: In any case, it is most likely used more than Creative Commons or Answers here.
Comment on attachment 483850 [details] [diff] [review] Preliminary changes This looks good. But, I need to confirm this is OK before check in. # Search engine order (order displayed in the search bar dropdown) browser.search.order.1=Google -browser.search.order.2=Yahoo +browser.search.order.2=Wikipedia (lt) +browser.search.order.3=Bing Not sure about the Wikipedia placement. Not saying it is not correct, but I do think it is worth confirming this is OK.
Can you prepare a patch for 1.9.2 that removed Bloglines? We need that, too. I can approve that quickly...no big changes except to remove Bloglines and replace with Google.
(In reply to comment #10) > Seth, if you want me to have the sixth searchplugin, then perhaps I should > simply not drop Yahoo! yet. I just thought that perhaps my position regarding > it is a bit biased and subjective. In any case, it's I think it'd be nice to get one more specific-interest search engine like Wikipedia. Cutting Yahoo is fine if no one is using it. No need to keep it there if 5 good ones are better than 5 good + 1 not-so-good.
Created attachment 485076 [details] [diff] [review] Branch – Remove bloglines Branch patch. I'm planning to commit it to both 1.9.2 and 1.9.1 (we still produce 3.5 series releases, don't we?)
Comment on attachment 485076 [details] [diff] [review] Branch – Remove bloglines Please commit this only to 1.9.2. Do not commit to 1.9.1. When you check into 1.9.2, please annotate that checkin with a comment that references bug 603988. Thanks, RQ.
Attachment #485076 - Flags: review+
committed to 1.9.2 in r014b9639e270
Stas, Seth told me to seek your opinion regarding whether or not I should/could commit this change to 1.9.1. What's your take on this? I'm very ready to do so.
Whiteboard: [update l10n-src-verification] → [l10n-src-verif updated]
Comment on attachment 483850 [details] [diff] [review] Preliminary changes Rimas - you can check this into l10n-central. Please add a comment referencing this bug and the changes.
Attachment #483850 - Flags: review+
(In reply to comment #18) > Stas, Seth told me to seek your opinion regarding whether or not I should/could > commit this change to 1.9.1. What's your take on this? I'm very ready to do so. I think we will be EOL-ing 1.9.1 soon and have been recently sending out more messages to migrate users from that build. I really don't think it is necessary to do it, but I can't see why it hurts. If you have to do it, go for it. :)
(In reply to comment #19) > Rimas - you can check this into l10n-central. Please add a comment referencing > this bug and the changes. http://hg.mozilla.org/l10n-central/lt/rev/4b1540299283 (In reply to comment #20) > I think we will be EOL-ing 1.9.1 soon and have been recently sending out more > messages to migrate users from that build. I really don't think it is > necessary to do it, but I can't see why it hurts. If you have to do it, go for > it. :) http://hg.mozilla.org/releases/l10n-mozilla-1.9.1/lt/rev/6f005c6f0e16
Resolving as fixed.
Status: NEW → RESOLVED
Last Resolved: 7 years ago
Resolution: --- → FIXED
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