788304 - Reply to NNTP message goes to person, not the newsgroup (change by Tb 14 at message header pane for news account from "Reply" button only to "Reply" button+"Followup" button is very confusing)

Status: RESOLVED DUPLICATE of bug 533077

(Thunderbird :: Message Reader UI, defect)

Description

[Susanb]

User Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (compatible; MSIE 9.0; Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; Trident/5.0; SLCC2; .NET CLR 2.0.50727; .NET CLR 3.5.30729; .NET CLR 3.0.30729; Media Center PC 6.0; .NET CLR 1.1.4322; .NET4.0C; .NET4.0E; InfoPath.3)

Steps to reproduce:

After the install of Thunderbird 15 replies to a nntp posting do not by default go to the nntp location but instead reply to the poster.

In nntp this can lead to an invalid email address and lack of posting to the nntp newsgroup


Actual results:

When clicking on reply, the message goes to the sender, not to the nntp newsgroup address.


Expected results:

It should have gone back to the newsgroup.

Comment 1

[WADA:World Anti-bad-Duping Agency]

It looks UI implementation change in Tb 15 for consistent menu/wording at UI.
(i) At drop down menu of "Message" 
When news account, "Reply to newsgroup"(=CTRL+R) looks to have been changed to "Followup to newsgroup"(=CTRL+R).
(ii) At message header pane
"Reply" button looks for "Reply to the sender of this message" always.
When news account, "Followup" button is shown, and "Followup" button looks for "Followup to newsgroup" always.

Do you see your problem with CTRL+R(Command+R if Mac) for news article instead of "Reply" button?

Comment 2

[WADA:World Anti-bad-Duping Agency]

A way to reduce user's confusion : change order of button when news account.
  Reply, Followup, ...  =>  Followup, Reply, ...
Even after it, following inconsistency remains.
  Mismatch between "R" in shortcut of CTRL+R and "Followup" as button/menu label.

Comment 3

[WADA:World Anti-bad-Duping Agency]

FYI.
For "Reply" button of Toolbar.
When news account, "Reply" button of Toolbar is assigned to CTRL+R == Followup to newsgroup == "Followup" button at message header pane.

Comment 4

[Susanb]

I've tried moving the buttons around but for email I need reply/not reply all.   For newsgroups I need what you are calling Followup in that response position.  I can't get the needed buttons in the right spots for consistent use.

As we chatted on a nntp newsgroup, we're now sending direct replies to people and we're not intending to do that.

Comment 5

[WADA:World Anti-bad-Duping Agency]

(In reply to Susanb from comment #4)
> I can't get the needed buttons in the right spots for consistent use.

Buttons in message header pane is not customizable. Position change is a recommendation of improved UI design of Tb or to Theme/add-on developer.

> As we chatted on a nntp newsgroup, we're now sending direct replies to
> people and we're not intending to do that.

A way to protect you from unwanted mail sending to news article poster via "Reply" button in message header pane of Tb 15.
(1) Define dummy(non-existent) SMTP.
(2) Choose the dummy SMTP as "Outgoing server(SMTP):" for each identity associated to the news account.
=> If not "Newsgroup: news-group-name", if "To: mail-addr-of-poster",
   Tb tries to send mail using the dummy SMTP, then mail sending always fails.

Comment 6

[Susanb]

(In reply to WADA from comment #5)
> (In reply to Susanb from comment #4)
> > I can't get the needed buttons in the right spots for consistent use.
> 
> Buttons in message header pane is not customizable. Position change is a
> recommendation of improved UI design of Tb or to Theme/add-on developer.
> 
> > As we chatted on a nntp newsgroup, we're now sending direct replies to
> > people and we're not intending to do that.
> 
> A way to protect you from unwanted mail sending to news article poster via
> "Reply" button in message header pane of Tb 15.
> (1) Define dummy(non-existent) SMTP.
> (2) Choose the dummy SMTP as "Outgoing server(SMTP):" for each identity
> associated to the news account.
> => If not "Newsgroup: news-group-name", if "To: mail-addr-of-poster",
>    Tb tries to send mail using the dummy SMTP, then mail sending always
> fails.

Ugh.  Can't move the buttons back to whatever behavior you had before that just worked, huh?

Comment 7

[WADA:World Anti-bad-Duping Agency]

CC-ing to Jim Porter who is owner of Bug 718342.

Jim Porter, can "Reply" button of message header pane be removed if NNTP, for Tb 15.x or T 16? (as short term relief of this kind of problems)

Comment 8

[Jim Porter (:squib)]

(In reply to WADA from comment #7)
> CC-ing to Jim Porter who is owner of Bug 718342.
> 
> Jim Porter, can "Reply" button of message header pane be removed if NNTP,
> for Tb 15.x or T 16? (as short term relief of this kind of problems)

We already did that for a release (14.0). The current behavior is designed to be consistent with how mailing lists work, except that "Reply List" is called "Followup" in a newsgroup context, since that's what the GNKSA* recommends.

* http://www.newsreaders.com/gnksa/gnksa.txt

Comment 9

[Susanb]

Actually in a nntp setting, followup is normally used when you want any cross posting responses to follow up to a single group.

Regardless of what you guys want to call it, because it's in the wrong spot, I have to either reply all and edit out the other "to" or remember to move my mouse over to the right one spot from where I normally click to reply to send a response back to a newsgroup.

I am a Thunderbird user because I also support web forms via a nntp bridge (because it's way more efficient than using the web interface) but the movement of this button is making my newsgroup interactions inefficient.

The GUI change puts the button in the wrong place for my efficiency.  Call it reply, call it followup, can it be moved to the spot I need it to be so I don't keep emailing back to the wrong place?

Comment 10

[Jim Porter (:squib)]

(In reply to Susanb from comment #9)
> Actually in a nntp setting, followup is normally used when you want any
> cross posting responses to follow up to a single group.

Yes, in the sense of a "Followup-To" header, which - much like the "Reply-To" header for mail - affects where the "followup" (or "reply" for email) command sends messages.

There are a number of options for things we could do to resolve this (e.g. allowing the message header toolbar to be customized separately for mail vs news), though I'm not sure what the best way forward here is, keeping in mind that if we simply removed the "Reply" button for NNTP, it would be inconsistent and confusing for users who use both email lists and newsgroups for discussing.

Comment 11

[Susanb]

I moderate the listserv of www.patchmanagement.org, I do web forums, and I do newsgroups.  This button move is obviously more inconsistent and confusing  :-) otherwise I wouldn't be here and have opened up a bug.

I've confirmed with other Thunderbird nntp users and they are in the same boat.

Comment 12

[Jim Porter (:squib)]

Can you elaborate on why you expect the button layout to be different for NNTP than it is for a mailing list? I assume you're using a listserv that sets the List-Post header properly, so you get a "Reply List" button, right? Do you use listservs differently from NNTP, or is it just that you have to relearn where the buttons are for NNTP?

Comment 13

[Jim Porter (:squib)]

So, here are some options I can think of that might help:

* Rename the separate "reply" button to "reply to sender", to help disambiguate it (if you get
  an email only to you, you'd still see "reply" though, since that's unambiguous)

* Add some non-default buttons to the message header toolbar that perform exactly one action,
  e.g. "Followup", "Reply All". These would hide themselves when irrelevant, so you could put
  the "Followup" button first and the reply to sender button second, and then you can always
  click the first visible button to do what you want. (I think.)

Comment 14

[Susanb]

(In reply to Jim Porter (:squib) from comment #12)
> Can you elaborate on why you expect the button layout to be different for
> NNTP than it is for a mailing list? I assume you're using a listserv that
> sets the List-Post header properly, so you get a "Reply List" button, right?
> Do you use listservs differently from NNTP, or is it just that you have to
> relearn where the buttons are for NNTP?

I expect a consistent button location, right now it is different and not the same.  

Mailing list, is quite frankly just email.  I set up most of the listservs I moderate whereby "reply" goes back to the list.  I do not set them up like discussions lists where one has to hit reply all in order to go back to both the discussion list as well as the person.

In this case we (or rather I, it's what I'm used to) want the reply for the nntp newsgroup to go back to the group as the default.  

Becauseyou now have this new message toolbar, I have to pull reply down and hit reply all, or move to the right and click on follow up to have it go back ot the newsgroup, I keep hitting the wrong button.  As do numerous other nntp users that I checked with when we all scratched our heads on the update in 15.0 and went "Okay what are we doing and why did it work before and now it's not working?"

Listservs .. like the one at www.patchmanagement.org, I hit reply, not reply all, and the UI button to do so is the very first button position on the right side of the message screen.

To reply back to the nntp newsgroup in the 15.0 UI I have to either make sure I move my mouse over one or reply all and edit out the to.  If I merely hit the normal button that is the first one on the right hand side, I end up going back to the person, which in all my years of nntp-dom, isn't something one normally did.

Bottom line, I just loaded up an older Thunderbird and realized that if I just edit the message toolset completely out, and thus go back to using the "reply" button and the very top of the Thunderbird window, then reply when I am in email will go back to the email I want, I choose reply all when I want to or interact with a discussion list, and last but not least, when responding to a nntp newsgroup post, I can click on reply up in the top tool bar and it will go back to the nntp newsgroup like I want.

The issue is I'm used to hitting a button in a certain spot to send a message back to the mail server/orginator/nntp server. It's the position messing me up.

Does that help to understand what's going on and why we keep sending the message to the wrong place?

Comment 15

[Jim Porter (:squib)]

(In reply to Susanb from comment #14)
> I expect a consistent button location, right now it is different and not the
> same.  
> 
> Mailing list, is quite frankly just email.  I set up most of the listservs I
> moderate whereby "reply" goes back to the list.

You mean you use Reply-To munging instead of the List-Post header? That's the only way I can imagine mailing lists and newsgroups having a different button arrangement.

Reply-To munging is technically a violation of RFC 2822, which states:

  "When the 'Reply-To:' field is present, it indicates the mailbox(es) to which the author
   of the message suggests that replies be sent."

Since the list isn't the author of the message (it's the publisher), it shouldn't be using Reply-To like that.

I'm sympathetic to your goal of increasing consistency between your mailing lists and newsgroups, but the current implementation is consistent for RFC 2822-compliant mailing lists.

Comment 16

[Susanb]

Then why does the tool bar at the top use of "reply" go back to the nntp newsgroup?  Isn't that inconsistent then too?

I apologize for not understanding, but I just want to stop accidentally emailing newsgroup posters.  How the managers of listserves set them up with whatever settings that I don't own, but are merely a volunteer moderator for, isn't the issue here as I see it and we're getting a bit off topic to the issue of the button placement.

I've been a Thunderbird user for years.  The message buttons are inconsistent for other nntp users as well.  We are used to replying back to the newsgroup.  In the email interface we reply back to emails.  We decide when and where we use reply all.  

The message bar UI has the posting to the newsgroup button (i.e. followup) one button over to the right from the reply button.  In a newsgroup, unlike an email, the default is not to reply to the poster, but to reply to the group.  I need in order to reply back to the newsgroup to be one button over to the left from the reply and be the default for nntp.  I wish for it to be the primary default one on the right side of the message toolbar.  When I move it to the place that makes it perfect for newsgroups, it messes up the button placement I need for normal email (listserves or no listserves).  

I can't set one button setup for email and another for nntp.  If I could, this too would solve my problem.

The only time in past history I set the followup is when I was merging a newsgroup thread and wanted to fork the conversation to a specific nntp newsgroup.

If all of that is in violation of various RFCs, I deeply apologize, I don't set up the listserves or the newsgroups.  But I do try to be a good netizen and post back to the newsgroup, not to the person.

That's what I'm not able to do without either removing the message toolbar, or going out of my way to click on the followup button.

I apologize for being this insistent about this, but I was a Netscape user, and then moved to Thunderbird because I keep all of my community/volunteer email in one interface.  I love the fact that you still support nntp and thank you very very much for that.

This message toolbar change is impacting my volunteer efficiency is all.

Thank you for understanding my issue here.

Comment 17

[WADA:World Anti-bad-Duping Agency]

If Reply button is not shown at message header pane when NNTP, I believe many user can click new Followup button at message header pane when he want to reply to newsgroup article. (In-Reply-To: header is properly used in newsgroup article. So, "Reply to newsgroup" is also a valid term as "Followup to newsgroup" is correct term). 
Until inconsistency between "Reply button of Toolbar" and "Reply/Followup button of message header pane in Tb 14 or later" will be fully resolved, I think a simplest/effective way to reduce "unwanted/accidental mail sending to news article poster by clicking Reply button" is "remove Reply and Forward button from message header pane if NNTP".

Jim Porter, what do you think about "removing Reply & Forward button when NNTP"?

Comment 18

[Jim Porter (:squib)]

(In reply to WADA from comment #17)
> Jim Porter, what do you think about "removing Reply & Forward button when
> NNTP"?

No. The current implementation is correct and consistent for people using RFC 2822-compliant mailing lists. For both compliant mailing lists and newsgroups, the message header reply button replies to the *sender*, and the reply list/followup button replies to the group. We shouldn't introduce more inconsistencies as a workaround for non-compliant mailing lists.

That said, the Mail Toolbar reply button does behave inconsistently, and we should fix that. However, it's not a part of the default UI, so I don't think it's urgent or essential.

Comment 19

[Jim Porter (:squib)]

(In reply to Susanb from comment #16)
> Then why does the tool bar at the top use of "reply" go back to the nntp
> newsgroup?  Isn't that inconsistent then too?

It is. The reply button on the main toolbar is pretty messed up, and we should fix it, but it's a lot harder to change, since main toolbar buttons come with the expectation that we don't automatically show/hide them (it looks really odd when you do). I considered different strategies there, but I'm not sure what the best one is.

> I've been a Thunderbird user for years.  The message buttons are
> inconsistent for other nntp users as well.  We are used to replying back to
> the newsgroup.

It's unfortunate that Thunderbird has used confusing naming for so long that people have gotten used to it and are now confused by the recommended terminology. There are some things we could do to ameliorate this (e.g. say "Reply to Author" instead of just "Reply"), but a lot of this is just about changing old habits. We've tried to ease users into this by hiding the "Reply" button for a release so they adjust to the Followup button, but old habits die hard.

> The only time in past history I set the followup is when I was merging a
> newsgroup thread and wanted to fork the conversation to a specific nntp
> newsgroup.

Do remember that "set[ting] the followup" is different from following up to a message. Setting a Followup-To header is just like setting a Reply-To header, in that it changes the behavior of the Followup (or Reply) commands. I hope I don't seem like I'm harping on this issue, but this is a case where past use of inaccurate terminology has caused people to be confused about what "followup" means.

> I apologize for being this insistent about this, but I was a Netscape user,
> and then moved to Thunderbird because I keep all of my community/volunteer
> email in one interface.  I love the fact that you still support nntp and
> thank you very very much for that.

One option would be to write an add-on (or get someone to write one) that adds a new button to the message header toolbar which does what you want. Such an add-on would probably be pretty useful for people who are used to non-RFC-2822-compliant mailing lists. An add-on like this would be pretty simple to make.

Comment 20

[WADA:World Anti-bad-Duping Agency]

FYI.
Another inconsistency seen in NNTP case.
- Drop down menu of Message menu :
    "Reply to List" is grayed out as expected.
- Context menue of news article  :
    "Reply to List" is not grayed out.
    "Reply to List" behaves as if "Followup to Newsgroup" is requested.

Comment 21

[Jim Porter (:squib)]

(In reply to WADA from comment #20)
> - Context menue of news article  :
>     "Reply to List" is not grayed out.
>     "Reply to List" behaves as if "Followup to Newsgroup" is requested.

That's bug 631765.

Comment 22

[WADA:World Anti-bad-Duping Agency]

(In reply to Jim Porter (:squib) from comment #18)
> (In reply to WADA from comment #17)
> > Jim Porter, what do you think about "removing Reply & Forward button when
> > NNTP"?

> We shouldn't introduce more inconsistencies as a workaround for non-compliant mailing lists.

This bug is never for issue due to "non-compliant mailing list". This bug is for issues on absolutely correct/valid/proper newsgroup article which was produced by UI change from Tb 14.
And, "removing Reply & Forward button from message header pane if NNTP" won't produce any new inconsistency. 
My proposal is a short term workaround of user's mis-use of new "Reply button of message header pane if NNTP" when he wants to do "Reply to newsgroup", which is correctly "always Reply to sender only" as you say.

Comment 23

[Jim Porter (:squib)]

(In reply to WADA from comment #22)
> (In reply to Jim Porter (:squib) from comment #18)
> > (In reply to WADA from comment #17)
> > > Jim Porter, what do you think about "removing Reply & Forward button when
> > > NNTP"?
> 
> > We shouldn't introduce more inconsistencies as a workaround for non-compliant mailing lists.
> 
> This bug is never for issue due to "non-compliant mailing list". This bug is
> for issues on absolutely correct/valid/proper newsgroup article which was
> produced by UI change from Tb 14.

The discussion above with Susanb revealed that she was experiencing an apparent inconsistency in the UI because she works with mailing lists that perform Reply-To munging (which is in violation of RFC 2822). If said mailing lists were compliant, there would be no inconsistency because the button layout would be identical for mailing lists as well as newsgroups.

> And, "removing Reply & Forward button from message header pane if NNTP"
> won't produce any new inconsistency.

It absolutely would. It would change the layout of the buttons so that newsgroups and (compliant) mailing lists would have a different set of visible buttons. I must stress this: in Thunderbird 15, the reply buttons in the message header toolbar are the same for newsgroups and mailing lists. The only difference at all is that the string "Reply List" is used in mail, and "Followup" is used in news.

> My proposal is a short term workaround of user's mis-use of new "Reply
> button of message header pane if NNTP" when he wants to do "Reply to
> newsgroup", which is correctly "always Reply to sender only" as you say.

The mis-use here is because Susanb is used to the Reply (to sender) button actually sending messages to a mailing list; that happens because the mailing list munges Reply-To headers. Reply-To munging has been non-compliant for almost 12 years now, and while I have no animosity to people who prefer it, we should be orienting our UI to follow conventions.

Comment 24

[Susanb]

Please forget the mailing list reference, it's a red herring and confusing the issue.

When I'm using the email client I look to the message toolbar and click the first button on the left - i.e. reply.

I then reply back to an email sent directly to me.  So far so good.

When I'm using the newsgroup client I look to the message toolbar and assume that the very first button on the right hand side - called reply - would go back to the nntp newsgroup.  It does not.  Now have have to move my mouse cursor over and pick "followup".  Again in my world of nntp, using Thunderbird, before this message toolbar was introduced, hitting the reply button at the top of the window, would go back to the person who sent me the email in the email client, and would also go back to the nntp newsgroup in the nntp client.

Whatever you had before... you changed something.  Go back and look in your earlier versions because I'm not the only one in nntp forums 

a. scratching our heads trying to figure out what moved because we keep emailing the poster, not the forum,
b. making the decision to not update their Thunderbird to version 15 - which as a moderator for a patch management resource is not an acceptable solution for me personally, 
c. trying out a new newsgroup client and determining if they want to abandon Thunderbird,
d. or, like me, removing the message toolbar because we keep hitting the wrong button.

Bottom line, something in the UI changed enough, is confusing to people like me, that we're sending messages to a place we don't intend them to be sent.

Comment 25

[Jim Porter (:squib)]

(In reply to Susanb from comment #24)
> When I'm using the newsgroup client I look to the message toolbar and assume
> that the very first button on the right hand side - called reply - would go
> back to the nntp newsgroup.  It does not.  Now have have to move my mouse
> cursor over and pick "followup".

Yes, this is consistent with other kinds of messages. Except for mailing lists that munge the Reply-To header, the first reply button in the message header toolbar *always* replies to the author, and the second reply button (if it exists) *always* replies to a wider audience. This is the same as with mailing lists (Reply List), and messages with multiple recipients (Reply All).

I know this is a change that requires people to adjust their habits, but for people who switch frequently between mail and news (and are on RFC-compliant mailing lists), they'll find that the buttons to perform a given action are now in the same place for email and news. I think that's a net win.

Comment 26

[Susanb]

Again, this isn't about RFC-compliant mailing lists.

This is about a UI change that is causing your customer base to negatively react to this change.  I am not the only one with this bug/issue.

Comment 27

[WADA:World Anti-bad-Duping Agency]

(In reply to Jim Porter (:squib) from comment #25)
> but for people who switch frequently between mail and news
> (and are on RFC-compliant mailing lists),
> they'll find that the buttons to perform a given action are
> now in the same place for email and news. I think that's a net win.

However, as you already know and as you say like next, it forced adjusting of habits to long term & ordinal News & Tb lovers like us. This is a net loss.
> I know this is a change that requires people to adjust their habits, (snip)

Although "Followup" is correct term in NNTP, "posting response to a news article" had been called/was called/is still being called "Reply" in real world. And "Reply to Newsgroup(s)" is also correct term in real world.
In contrast to it, Followup-to: header is slightly different from user's action of "Reply to Newsgroup(s)". Followup-to: header is a request to post all subsequent replies to newsgroups specified in Followup-to: header. So, it's not impossible to say that "Followup" can be used only when Followup-to: header exists in a news article.

Is change from menu label of "Reply to Newsgroup" to menu label of "Followup to Newsgroup" mandatory for majority of Tb & News users?
Is button label of "Followup" at header Toolbar far better than button label of "Reply to article" like one for majority of Tb & News users?
Is absolutely same action of "button labeled Reply at header Toolbar" among mail, mailing list, newsgroup etc. mandatory and far better for majority of Tb users?

Although I believe sorting-out by you is mandatory for future development, I think term/wording/label etc. in UI is better user friendly.
- Reply(to mail)         == send reply mail to mail address in From:
- Reply(to mailing list) == post a comment to mailing list
- Reply(to news article) == post a response to newsgroups specified in Newsgroup:
                            (or to newsgroups in Followup-To: if exists)
- Send mail to poster of news article == same as current "Reply to Sender only"
                             == same as current "Reply" button in header Toolbar
                             == send a reply mail to mail-addr in From:

Comment 28

[WADA:World Anti-bad-Duping Agency]

(In reply to Jim Porter (:squib) from comment #18)
> That said, the Mail Toolbar reply button does behave inconsistently, and we should fix that.

I've opened bug 789400.
Removing "Reply button in Mail Toolbar" from bug summary.

Comment 29

[Jim Porter (:squib)]

(In reply to WADA from comment #27)
> Although "Followup" is correct term in NNTP, "posting response to a news
> article" had been called/was called/is still being called "Reply" in real
> world. And "Reply to Newsgroup(s)" is also correct term in real world.

The GNKSA disagrees. RFC1036 also disagrees, but that's just a specification and may not reflect the "real world". The fact is that many, many popular newsreaders use "followup" in this way, and only a handful I could find use "reply" to mean "post a response to a news post".

> In contrast to it, Followup-to: header is slightly different from user's
> action of "Reply to Newsgroup(s)". Followup-to: header is a request to post
> all subsequent replies to newsgroups specified in Followup-to: header. So,
> it's not impossible to say that "Followup" can be used only when
> Followup-to: header exists in a news article.

That's like saying "Reply" can only be used when the "Reply-To" header exists in a mail message. The Followup-To header affects where a post goes when the Followup command is performed. This is *just* like what happens with the Reply-To header and the Reply command.

In any case, I don't think the use of the term "Followup" is what's at stake here. The specific concern that Susanb has is that the buttons are in an inconvenient order for her, not that the name has changed. If the name were a problem, I'm assuming this would have been filed when 14.0 was released.

(In reply to Susanb from comment #26)
> This is about a UI change that is causing your customer base to negatively
> react to this change.  I am not the only one with this bug/issue.

The fact that people are reacting negatively is unfortunate, but that doesn't necessarily provide any insight into a solution that allows the UI to remain consistent, but also lets people like you work the way you want. I'm not sure what complaints the people you've talked to have, but based on the mozilla.support.thunderbird group, most of the confusion revolves around people who think that "Followup" only applies when the "Followup-To" header is included. Your case is a bit different, though.

For your use case, there are a few different things we could do:

* Add a "Followup" button you can add to the message header toolbar that hides itself in
  non-news contexts (see comment 13)
* Allow different toolbar customizations for mail or news messages
* Write an add-on
* After bug 525070 is fixed, replace all the reply buttons with a single button that lets
  you specify a preferred order of reply actions to try (e.g. Reply All -> Reply List ->
  Followup -> Reply). Hitting the button would select the first reply action that makes
  sense for that message.

Comment 30

[Susanb]

In addition to the examples in the thunderbird group here's some from a newsgroup where we first were chatting about it to determine if something did indeed change:

"FWIW, if you right click one of the buttons you'll get a 'Customize' option. I used that to remove the damned 'Reply' button from the toolbar (because it's rare that I reply to a post with a direct email).

If I want to send mail the Reply option is available by clicking the down arrow on the button ( but in truth I haven't tried that yet).

Hopefully, now when I annoy posters in the newsgroup it will be deliberate. "

"Yup. In one day Zane, Tamar, Ray, and someone else whose name escapes me got emails from me that I didn't intend to send.

The truth is that I don't know if they moved the position of the button or relabeled it but this "Follow-up" business is a PITA. "

"Yeah, they changed some settings (and others already told that) and
caused such a mess, you aren't the first one complaining about it."

I won't bore you with more examples, that gives you an idea of the confusion caused to your user base.

Comment 31

[Jim Porter (:squib)]

(In reply to Susanb from comment #30)
> I won't bore you with more examples, that gives you an idea of the confusion
> caused to your user base.

These just sound like people who are having a bit of trouble adjusting to the new layout. In their case, renaming "Reply" to "Reply to Author" would probably fix things. We should handle that in bug 533077, probably.

Comment 32

[WADA:World Anti-bad-Duping Agency]

(In reply to Jim Porter (:squib) from comment #29)
> The fact is that many, many popular newsreaders use "followup" in this way, (snip)

I see.
How about button order change when news account?
  If news, "Reply, Followup, Forward" => "Followup, Reply, Forward".
  ("Followup, Reply to Auther, Forward", if NNTP and if possible)
This is "order of importance", "order of frequecy of usage".
Different order of "Followup, Reply, Forward" from "Reply, Reply All(or Reply to List), Forward" of mail/mailing-list is so critical problem in UI?
Complicated logic is needed to change order in addition to simple button label change from "Reply All" to "Followup"?

By the way, current "Followup" button and "Followup to Newsgroup" menu works prety well with newsgrop of mozilla.test & mozilla.test.multimedia of news.mozilla.org.
Funny thing observed is;
- Grayed out drop down menu of Message menu depends on existence of To: header.
  (if mozilla.test.multimedia, To: [e-mail] is written.)
- Result by "Reply to List" and "Reply to All" also depends on To: header.
  (both menu are shown in context menu always)
  In addition to Newsgroup: Reply to List : To: => To:, Reply to All : To: => CC:
This is perhaps issue which should be covered by bug 631765.

Comment 33

[Jim Porter (:squib)]

(In reply to WADA from comment #32)
> How about button order change when news account?
[snip]
> This is "order of importance", "order of frequecy of usage".

This isn't always so clear. For instance, I expect it's more common to use "Reply to List" than to use "Reply" (to sender). The current way arranges the buttons by how many people are going to see the message, which I think is a useful mnemonic. The first button always sends to one person, and the second (if it exists) always sends to groups of people.

> - Grayed out drop down menu of Message menu depends on existence of To:
> header.
[snip]

Could you file a separate bug on that? I think this is separate from bug 631765. It looks like Thunderbird gets confused when it sees a message with both email and newsgroup headers.

Comment 35

[Javi Rueda :javirid]

I have just filled a new bug that happened to duplicate this one.

Once I have closed mine, I think that this one should be marked as NEW.

Comment 36

[Jim Porter (:squib)]

This bug should probably be WONTFIX per the discussion above. While we could certainly improve the clarity of the UI by fixing bug 533077, the current behavior that we have is correct and consistent with mailing lists. In fact, it's even more consistent than it was at the time of the previous discussion, since you can't hit "Reply" to reply to the list, even with munged Reply-To headers: see bug 533077.

Comment 37

[Wayne Mery (:wsmwk)]

FWIW, similar bug 838116 was duped to bug 533077.
(simplifying summary)

Comment 38

[Jim Porter (:squib)]

Yeah, let's dupe this. Bug 533077 is the best way to resolve this.