Closed Bug 1250051 Opened 9 years ago Closed 9 years ago

Consider reverting default value of preference editor.CR_creates_new_p back to false

Categories

(Thunderbird :: Message Compose Window, defect)

Product:
Thunderbird
Component:
Message Compose Window
Version:
45 Branch
Type:
defect
Priority:
Not set
Severity:
normal

Tracking

(Not tracked)

Status:
RESOLVED WONTFIX

People

(Reporter: jorgk-bmo, Unassigned)

References

Details

In bug 330891 we changed the default value of preference editor.CR_creates_new_p from false to true and made HTML composition in paragraph format the default. Some users have been confused by the new behaviour (bug 1250005, bug 1249988). There appears to be a problem in the M-C editor when mixing paragraph format and body text format (bug 1248971), although this problem is hard to reproduce and I haven't seen it yet. The M-C editor loses the font, font colour, size, etc. when an empty paragraph is created (bug 1249988, bug 1250010). We might revert the decision of changing the default value. I had originally proposed not to change the default value, but Magnus said in bug 330891 comment #70: === I think we should have it on by default at least for now, and depending on feedback during alpha+beta we could always change the default. === Personal note: I find paragraph format really useful. I've been using it for two months and haven't suffered from any problems. It lets me structure my text, so I can create a new paragraph or just a new line. This is useful even if the e-mail is downgraded to plain text. It also moves TB out of the age of the type-writer. If we revert the default value back to false, many users won't find the new feature.
Magnus, what do you think?
Flags: needinfo?(mkmelin+mozilla)
I've found it pretty useful too. Almost any change you do will have some complaints. Only two reports is not bad at all... And users always have the pref if they don't really like it.
Flags: needinfo?(mkmelin+mozilla)
Feel free to WONTFIX this at any time ;-)
(In reply to Magnus Melin from comment #4) > I've found it pretty useful too. > Almost any change you do will have some complaints. Only two reports is not > bad at all... And users always have the pref if they don't really like it. I would agree with Magnus - it feels like Composer is making some tangible progress after a long time of stagnation. It immediately feels like a more mature HTML editor with the new behavior and I would guess the vast majority of technically uninclined users would benefit from not having to know that they need to hit enter twice for readable emails. You always hear negative voices about any change louder and first. I would rather if there are underlying issues about styling caused by being in a paragraph - feel free to add me to Cc if there are any so I can do some research.
The styling issue is being looked at in bug 1250010. It can be easily reproduced in FF, no TB needed. I guess no one wants to fix the M-C editor, so I'll have to do it.
I'm not a compose peer, but add my vote to the "WONTFIX this bug" pile. People (ones who use beta versions of TB especially!) need to be able to accept that changes will happen to Thunderbird. Also, we only have two such bugs on file, and one of them is of the "complaining about kids these days" variety, so this seems like pretty smooth sailing so far. :) We should probably have a relnote for the new feature, though (not that anyone reads those).
Yes, I noticed that one bug had a not-so-charming comment. The release notes cover this: https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/thunderbird/45.0beta/releasenotes/
Status: NEW → RESOLVED
Closed: 9 years ago
Resolution: --- → WONTFIX
Depends on: 330891
Jim, should we reconsider this? We had enough complaints, see duplicates.
Flags: needinfo?(squibblyflabbetydoo)
If there were some indication of what was happening in the composition window, this would be much less of an issue. Perhaps some sort of a style editor that allows the user to easily adjust the settings of the paragraph, like many modern word-processors. One person's opinion of readable is just that: one person's opinion, and frankly, most people are observant enough to add an extra line if they think it needs it, I suspect fewer of those people will know to use shift+enter to add LF without creating a new paragraph. From a usability perspective being able to format text in a predictable and manageable fashion is likely more important.
(In reply to markham breitbach from comment #16) > If there were some indication of what was happening in the composition > window, ... There is! Right under "Subject" and to the left of the font indicator is the format indicator. That reads "Body Text" or "Paragraph", etc. Yes, most of the users ignore it, but it is there.
(In reply to Jorg K (GMT+2) from comment #14) > Jim, should we reconsider this? We had enough complaints, see duplicates. I think things are good as it is. As I've mentioned on tb-planning, it's easy to opt out of this feature. While I understand that many people prefer the old way, I haven't seen any concerns raised that would suggest things are actually *broken* on some configurations. In general, it's not so much the number of bug reports that I track, but their content. I do think we should think about new ways to surface these changes to users. That's for another bug, though.
Flags: needinfo?(squibblyflabbetydoo)
The reason users are annoyed isn't because Enter now creates a new paragraph. That's the right way. It's because creating a new paragraph in Thunderbird inserts a double line spacing _by default_. Most if not all of the duplicates of this bug are about this double line spacing. This isn't the default behavior of LibreOffice, which we could consider most users of Thunderbird use. Nor is it the default behavior of Outlook, which does create a new paragraph with Enter. Is there a follow bug to set the default line spacing to single?
What you call "double line spacing" is a CSS margin. Richard, can you point me to where this is defined, I can't see it in messageBody.css (or elsewhere). Firefox does that also by default, so this might be outside our config. Making this margin smaller would be fatal since paragraphs would then not be distinguishable. Also, if you convert HTML to plain text, a paragraph gets converted to two lines. So if the user were able to enter undistinguishable paragraphs, they would very soon complain about incorrect plain text mail.
Flags: needinfo?(richard.marti)
(In reply to Thomas Bertels from comment #21) > The reason users are annoyed isn't because Enter now creates a new > paragraph. That's the right way. > It's because creating a new paragraph in Thunderbird inserts a double line > spacing _by default_. Most if not all of the duplicates of this bug are > about this double line spacing. vertical margins are normal for paragraph style - just like in word. it is basically the same as "extra space before / after p". This is what makes paragraphs readable. And it is the reason why I just had to but in TWO line breaks to make my next "paragraph" readable. The space below the <p> is the whole point I wanted it added as a default tag. You can influence that space (and make it unreadable again) by adding: <style> p { margin-top: 0 !important; margin-bottom: 0 !important; } </style> But I would really hate having to parse your emails then.
(In reply to Jorg K (PTO during summer, NI me) from comment #22) > What you call "double line spacing" is a CSS margin. Richard, can you point > me to where this is defined, I can't see it in messageBody.css (or > elsewhere). Firefox does that also by default, so this might be outside our > config. It's defined here: https://dxr.mozilla.org/comm-central/source/mozilla/layout/style/res/html.css#125 We could consider if we would reduce only the margin-block-end to 0.5em in messageBody.css. This would it still make the paragraph visible but not reduce the space inbetween too much.
Flags: needinfo?(richard.marti)
Thanks for the info. I wouldn't want to be any different to FF behaviour, that will only cause confusion. Since our style sheet is not included in the message, it would look different in TB from when viewed in webmail.
IMO I would prefer to revert to "body text" default. Many other visual mail composition windows (either standalone apps or browser based) don't create widely spaced paragraphs (visually), regardless if internally is paragraph without top&bottom margins or other tag. However, if this (default) was easy to configure via the GUI, would be better. The current checkbox in Tools>Options>Composition>General is totally confusing. It reads: "When using paragraph format, the enter key creates a new paragraph". If this option changes the default style between "body text" and "paragraph" then this label must be changed. In it's current form is very misleading because it indicates behaviour changes *only* when paragraph style has been selected by some means (automatic or manual). Reading this label makes you presume that if you uncheck it, while using paragraph style, your first style will be paragraph, then enter key will go to next line, like shift-enter. Wait, what? The label should either be updated to something like: "Use paragraph formatting by default" or changed to a drop down, identical to the style selector in composition window, so that the user can choose his/her default style.
should I open a new bug for that label?
No, it's already changed to "Use Paragraph format instead of Body Text by default" but will not land in TB 45.
(In reply to Richard Marti (:Paenglab) from comment #32) > No, it's already changed to "Use Paragraph format instead of Body Text by > default" but will not land in TB 45. AS I see it it is actually 2 options. Splitting a <p> into two rather than inserting a <br> is what is also does, was it decided to turn this into 2 separate options? (one for default, one for the "sticky" paragraph mode). The ideal thing would be a follow up tag for each style like in a word processor. E.g. <h1> [Enter] <p>
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