Closed Bug 495088 Opened 15 years ago Closed 7 years ago

[Tango Icons] Compose formatting icons need to increase clarity (more function, less style)

Categories

(Thunderbird :: Message Compose Window, defect)

x86
Windows XP
defect
Not set
minor

Tracking

(Not tracked)

RESOLVED WONTFIX

People

(Reporter: Peter, Unassigned)

References

Details

Attachments

(4 files)

User-Agent:       Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.9.2a1pre) Gecko/20090526 Minefield/3.6a1pre Creative ZENcast v1.02.10
Build Identifier: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.9.1pre) Gecko/20090526 Lightning/1.0pre Shredder/3.0b3pre

This is from my post at the newsgroup m.d.a.thunderbird (Subject: New Trash icon for messages markes as deleted - Why non-native?)
news://news.mozilla.com:119/5oSdnQp29piuyIDXnZ2dnUVZ_gCdnZ2d@mozilla.org

In the HTML compose window:

1. The buttons for bold, italics, and underline all have the same letter-image ("A"): *A* /A/ _A_. This makes it much harder to quickly identify the correct icon. Please make these icons *B* /I/ and _U_.

2. The orange arrows on the increase/decrease font size buttons are not recognizable enough (too small and blob-like).

3. The bullet and numbered list should emphasize the bullets and numbers more. i.e. not recognizable enough.

4. The left-, center-, and right align icons are too vague / washed out / unrecognizable. i.e. not recognizable enough.

5. The "Table" icon doesn't have enough contrast between the table lines and the cells. doesn't look clear enough like a table. i.e. not recognizable enough.

6. The smiley icon doesn't look like any of the smileys (orange vs. yellow). Should be the same icon as the :-)

Generally, too much "style", not enough "function".

Reproducible: Always
Flags: wanted-thunderbird3?
Flags: blocking-thunderbird3?
See for yourself: We lost function and clarity for some style.
Status: UNCONFIRMED → NEW
Ever confirmed: true
Version: unspecified → Trunk
1. The trouble with B(old), I(talics) and U(nderline), is that they don't work that well if you're speaking another language than English.

Spanish: Negrita, Cursiva, Subrayado
French: Gras, Italique, Sousligné
Swedish: Fet, Kursiv, Understruken.

2. Good point, will fix.

3. I'll attach another version of this.
1. While I agree with you, English version is still better than just *A*, /A/, _A_. Otherwise we have to draw for toolbar for all languages.
For 1. I think we could make clearer distinction between the letters.  Most of the letters look bold-ish and could likely be slimmed down to thinner versions.  I don't think there's anything wrong with the underline version.  

It's not reasonable to make internationalized icon sets for these buttons.  Most icons really need internationalization but since that is a large amount of work the best we can do is not to use metaphors, letters, or words related to a specific language.  See the GNOME HIG for examples: http://developer.gnome.org/projects/gup/hig/1.0/icons.html#icon_problems

2. I don't think the arrows in the old icon set really made this icon work.  When I look at the old icon I see that one letter is at the cap height, while the other letter only reaches the x-height.  The old blue arrows are too small to really be clear and I don't think the new orange ones can do much better.

3. agreed

4. The old icons are really just as vague.  The gtk stock icons use arrows in these icons. C,R,L,J == -><-, ->, <-, <--> which makes them stand out more but I don't think that's really right here.  Since this is in a drop down menu I think having a vertical line drawn over these icons would differentiate them from each other.  A line through the center, on the right, left, and both sides.

 (=v)
   |
  | 
    |
  | | 

5. No worried about this, by the time you're in this drop down the icons only need to differentiate from each other; not be highly distinct elements.  Each of these icons is distinct enough from each to be valuable.

6. Didn't we update these smileys?
(In reply to comment #4)
> For 1. It's not reasonable to make internationalized icon sets for these buttons. 

What!? Thunderbird 2 has localized B I U icons. Microsoft Office has localized B I U icons. OpenOffice has localized B I U icons. Just about every decent text editor has localized B I U icons. (The GNOME HIG is superseded in this case by a massive gain in usability)

Yet another example of why I don't like Linux. They can't even give it away. :-(

> 2. I don't think the arrows in the old icon set really made this icon work.

It worked a lot better. The relative sizes were much clearer, and the arrow was more recognizable.
 
> 3. agreed

Well one out of 6 is better than none out of six. :-)

> 4. The old icons are really just as vague.

Not true. The lines were thicker and larger, and had more contrast. Clarity should be the goal.

> 5. No worried about this, by the time you're in this drop down the icons only
> need to differentiate from each other; not be highly distinct elements.  Each
> of these icons is distinct enough from each to be valuable.

It could be a text box or labels. One is forced to read the description to be sure. Again, it lacks clarity.

> 6. Didn't we update these smileys?

Yellow is better than orange. The original and archetypal smiley is yellow. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smiley
> What!? Thunderbird 2 has localized B I U icons. 
I can't see this in my copy of Thunderbird 2 (2.0.0.21). I'm running the Swedish locale, but I still have the B I U-characters in the interface.

> Yellow is better than orange.
I would say the smileys are yellow, but it differs a lot from screen to screen, it looks more yellow on my Ubuntu Machine (MacBook Pro) than on my XP Machine (Dell Latitude). I think we could make them a bit lighter in general though.
> 6. Didn't we update these smileys?

Looking at the XP nightly build it appears that we only did that for gnomestripe. Filed Bug 495419
(In reply to comment #6)
> > What!? Thunderbird 2 has localized B I U icons. 
> I can't see this in my copy of Thunderbird 2 (2.0.0.21). I'm running the
> Swedish locale, but I still have the B I U-characters in the interface.

Ack! You're right. Memory glitch. :-[

http://www.thunderbird-mail.de/wiki/Nachrichten_schreiben

I was thinking of OpenOffice(1) and Word(2), and likely most other high-quality products that all do have localized B I U icons (for the most important locales?).

(1) http://de.openoffice.org/product/images/Sprache-waehlen_Writer-Statusleiste.png

(2) http://office.microsoft.com/training/training.aspx?AssetID=RP100664401031&CTT=6&Origin=RC100664431031

Thunderbird should do the same (it should be easy to make three localized BIU-icons), or continue to use B I U for all locales (it's still better that all A's).
(In reply to comment #8)
> Thunderbird should do the same (it should be easy to make three localized
> BIU-icons)

We now await your icon contributions for all locales, just attach them to this bug when you're done :)
(In reply to comment #9)
> We now await your icon contributions for all locales, just attach them to this
> bug when you're done :)

That is highly dishonest and just shows you have no interest in this important issue. I am an environmental consultant. I can do a hazardous building materials survey in the shortest amount of time. You would take at least 10-100 times longer. Get the point?
Sorry, I'm not trying to be clever.  My point is that it's not easy to get the icons done for all locales.  The last beta was translated into 43 different languages, which would mean around 43 icons need to be created for this one icon set.

I'm glad you've brought all these comments forward so we can get the icons fixed, but comments like "it should be easy to... (do your job)", to me at least, means you feel you can do it better.  And hey, it's open source so you have that option.

I would never attempt to estimate how much time and effort it would take you to do a hazardous building survey.  If I make such an estimate then I hope you'd feel free to spin the work over to me even if it takes 10 - 100 times longer and more effort than you.

From my point of view this format icon (like lots of other icons) presents these choices.
1. Use the B,I,U icon
2. Use a single internationalized B,I,U icon (a.k.a A,A,A)
3. Use a different icon for each (~43) locale

It is easiest and most efficient if we choose 2. while you're right that 3. is the best option we're really an army of 1 here.... Maybe an army of 1.01 or .91; I'm never sure if I weigh andreas down or help in an insignificant digit way.  Anyway it would take a while to complete 3. and that would just be for this single icon set, many others have similar problems.

With choosing option 2. we have the problem that our icons become less familiar but more open to other locales.  I don't think we want to step back in time to option 1. even though it works I think it's the easiest way out.  Also keep in mind that if we take a route like option 3. then when this issue comes up for other icons it is very hard to say those icons aren't worth the effort (any other l10n icon issue * at least 43).

What I'd like is to get your feedback on the new 2. style icons which I believe only need to be sharper and clearer than they are now.  I guess we'll see what we get from the iterations.
(In reply to comment #11)
> From my point of view this format icon (like lots of other icons) presents
> these choices.
> 1. Use the B,I,U icon
> 2. Use a single internationalized B,I,U icon (a.k.a A,A,A)
> 3. Use a different icon for each (~43) locale

4. Use localized BIU icons for >50% (~80%?) of locales, and AAA icons for the rest. Gradually localize the remaining BIU icons. A relatively few locales already cover a huge percentage of Thunderbird's user base (EN, DE, FR, ...?). You decide how many locales you can manage. That would be a good compromise.

5. Use the BIU icons for the EN locales and the less good AAA icons for all other locales. That's only 6 icons total. That's still better than the horrible AAA icons for everybody.

> What I'd like is to get your feedback on the new 2. style icons which I believe
> only need to be sharper and clearer than they are now.

They should be *much sharper and *much* *much* *much* clearer. <sigh>
Not blocking.

You don't have to take it to mean the first letter of the command, it's simply sample characters. Not all languages even have the characters in their alphabet...
Flags: blocking-thunderbird3? → blocking-thunderbird3-
I agree that you don't "have" to, but anything that makes identifying an icon significantly easier and faster is an improvement - even if it isn't for every locale. ;-)

(In reply to comment #11)
> What I'd like is to get your feedback on the new 2. style icons which I believe
> only need to be sharper and clearer than they are now.  I guess we'll see what
> we get from the iterations.

Sorry, I didn't answer that so well before:

The identifying characteristic should be immediately apparent and the primary "signal". The bold A should look fat, maybe even inflated (rounded sides); the italics A should look like it's about to fall over; and the line under underline A should be slightly more spaced away from the A to make it more noticeable and dominant.
Right now we use uppercase icons, but in order to make them more different from each other, I was thinking that we could use lowercase icons instead.
The lower case "a" still doesn't distinguish very well between the actual primary meanings (it's actually worse than the uppercase "A"). The thickness is about the same for all (so, which one is for bold?). The italic "a" is in a completely different font.

BTW: The letter "A" is the symbol for the "Font" and "Font Color" icons in many applications (e.g., Word, OpenOffice). User uncertainty: Is one of those icons for editing the font characteristics (Arial, Size,...)? 

Isn't the reason for not using the BIU icons the same reason as for using the letter "A" in non Latin alphabet locales? Why is what we have (BIU) not OK, when it is OK to show non Latin alphabet users the letter A?

PS. Has anyone in a non English locale ever complained about the BIU letters?

Idea: Would it be possible to show the BIU letters in actual vector fonts, in the actually selected font, within the icon? That would be cool!
Attached image tomboy example
> Idea: Would it be possible to show the BIU letters in actual vector fonts, in
the actually selected font, within the icon? That would be cool!

I like this idea, and it moves a bit closer to the model that Tomboy [1] use.
Do you want to hack up some code to do this?

1. http://projects.gnome.org/tomboy/
Here is how the new list icons look like.
Those look much better. The numbers for the numbered list aren't recognizable as numbers. Did I use the word "numbers" too often. ;-)

BTW: The blurry orange parts of icons make me think there's something wrong with my eyes (there isn't).
(In reply to comment #12)
> (In reply to comment #11)
> > From my point of view this format icon (like lots of other icons) presents
> > these choices.
> > 1. Use the B,I,U icon
> > 2. Use a single internationalized B,I,U icon (a.k.a A,A,A)
> > 3. Use a different icon for each (~43) locale
> 
> 4. Use localized BIU icons for >50% (~80%?) of locales, and AAA icons for the
> rest. Gradually localize the remaining BIU icons. A relatively few locales
> already cover a huge percentage of Thunderbird's user base (EN, DE, FR, ...?).
> You decide how many locales you can manage. That would be a good compromise.
> 
> 5. Use the BIU icons for the EN locales and the less good AAA icons for all
> other locales. That's only 6 icons total. That's still better than the horrible
> AAA icons for everybody.

Just to clarify these options.  Both tend toward the en-* locales looking and working better while other locales suffer.  Now it's true that this situation happens quite often but those are bugs and I don't intend to go down a path where I know we're giving other locales poor quality on purpose.  I understand there are obvious market share differences but I believe this is about fairness and isn't as simple as mac vs. pc vs. linux market share.

We can improve the current A icons to be just as good as the old ones and they will work better for all locales.

(In reply to comment #18)
> Created an attachment (id=381044) [details]
> new unordererd and ordered list icons preview
> 
> Here is how the new list icons look like.

I think there's good spacing between the list-style and the list-elements.  I like how other icons use only 2 numbers or bullets, that might give more vertical room to the list-style as they look a little tight.
(In reply to comment #20)
> Just to clarify these options.  Both tend toward the en-* locales looking and
> working better while other locales suffer.

So you agree that the BIU icons will always work better than the AAA icons. So the solution is to make them all equally worse? Wow!

> We can improve the current A icons to be just as good as the [BIU] ones 

That is impossible because the AAA icons will always lack a major conveyor of "meaning".
No that is a fallacy in logic, it does not have to be one or the other.  We're here because we agree the A icons aren't as clear as the originals.  But I do not think that the B,I,U icons will always work better.  I think that best icons would be using actual text styled in the correct manner (similar to what tomboy has done).  That would give the real effect of what will be shown, icons in any form would always be just representations.  The B isn't actually what you get, it depends on the font to look that way.

In any event we're going with option 2 as stated above.  It may have difficulties and errors but that's the path we're choosing because it is the best we can do to make icons that work for everyone and not just a select few.
Most of that previous comment doesn't make any sense to me. 

- What is "one"? What is "the other"? My suggestions 4 & 5 above are not an either/or solution. And BIU will always convey more information than AAA.

- BIU icons don't have to "always" work better (although I think they do); but they do work better than the AAA solution.

- Having the icons in the same font as the currently selected font sounds like a good idea (ignoring the huge technical barrier), until you realize that for many fonts the bold and italics are almost indistinguishable from the normal font and from each other. So you'd be stuck with two nearly identical "A" icons in many cases.

- The "B" stands for [B]old, and the B image is thicker. So there are two visual clues for the function of that button. Replacing the BIU with all "A"s would cut the amount of information in half. Half!

- BIU has worked just fine for "everyone" for a long time without complaints. Even non-English speakers benefit from BIU because there is an additional visual clue (different letters) - even if they don't associate "B" with "bold" (they can create their own mnemonic association).

I think using AAA icons would be a huge mistake. Do as you will. I'm done.
FYI: There's a new discussion on the BIU icons issue in the m.d.a.Thunderbird newsgroup under the subject: "Re: New Tango icons in XP (redux) (Message Compose: Icons for Bold Italics Underline - BIU vs AAA)"

Here's the link:
news://news.mozilla.com:119/PNudnWx58tlZCrrXnZ2dnUVZ_vmdnZ2d@mozilla.org
Blocks: 415415, 488061
I guess there's no way to use SVG icons ?
With TB 53 Windows XP is deprecated.
Status: NEW → RESOLVED
Closed: 7 years ago
Resolution: --- → WONTFIX
You need to log in before you can comment on or make changes to this bug.

Attachment

General

Creator:
Created:
Updated:
Size: