From Bugzilla Helper: User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux 2.4.0-test11 i686; en-US; 0.7) Gecko/20010111 BuildID: 200101118 Messages that go into "Inbox" ( don't fit any filter criteria ) and then moved to another folder are deleted from the pop server. The flush flag is disabled. I can read it, but Reproducible: Always Steps to Reproduce: So far, it seems that whenever there's a "Check for new messages" request, the message that has been moved from "Inbox" to another folder is deleted from the pop server. Actual Results: The message is deleted from the pop server Expected Results: The message should remain in the pop server.
Summary: messages are deleted from pop server → messages are deleted from pop server
works4me-using commercial build 2001-01-22-18 on linux. Reporter, can you try this on recent builds and see if this is still problem. thanks.
Are you sure you checked "Leave messages on server" in Account settings? If you don't, then all messages which you read will be deleted from the POP server and only remain locally. Can you try to reproduce this with a new nightly and that checkbox checked? Thanks..
The new nightly (2001012519) has still the same problem.... My settings are leave message on the server and delete when they're deleted locally. Unless the move operation implies deleting the message from the server ( which I'm almost positive is not the case ) there's something wrong... Thanx, Luis
I just tried this and you are right; message are actually deleted from the server if they are moved to another folder. This is when "Delete messages on server when they are deleted locally" and "Leave messages on server" both are checked! This is a major flaw, this should really be fixed before Mozilla 0.9 (if not 0.8!). Marking NEW. OS -> All And I guess this should get the dataloss keyword too?
Status: UNCONFIRMED → NEW
Ever confirmed: true
OS: Linux → All
Agreed that this is worth the dataloss keyword.
Hardware: PC → All
adding keyword and nominating for nsbeta1. A move should just be a move and should not delete a message from the server.
Per bug meeting, I tried this with 4.7, it does this too.
Keywords: nsbeta1 → nsbeta1-
Target Milestone: --- → Future
A move is really a delete from one folder and adding to another folder. Since the Inbox is the only folder on the server, and user has the preference set to "delete from server when I delete locally", then this is expected behavior. However, it could be confusing. How about throwing up a dialog when a message is moved from a POP Inbox to another folder stating that "A move is a delete from one folder and an add to another folder. If your preference is set to delete from server when deleting locally, this will delete this message from the server."
we can prevent a delete on server if the user does a move. however this is not a dataloss because the destination folder has the messsage. nominating for 0.9.2
Keywords: nsbeta1- → nsbeta1
Keywords: nsbeta1 → nsbeta1-
*** Bug 89970 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***
Severity: critical → enhancement
Summary: messages are deleted from pop server → [RFE} Do not delete messages on POP server when moved locally
The behavior described in this is identical as in Netscape 4.*. I believe this is correct. How else can I selectively delete messages on the server why keeping them on the client (most people I know keep the old messages locally not on the server). I would consider the WONTFIX solution. If not, there must be a setting to preserve the 4xp behavior we now have. As this goes against 4xp behavior, I dare change the summary severity to enancement.
Umm Jacek, that is a different issue. You should be allowed to do both. Maybe a delete only from server option (Is there a bug filed for that?). This should be fixed if possible, it is still a dataloss problem.
Summary: [RFE} Do not delete messages on POP server when moved locally → [RFE] Do not delete messages on POP server when moved locally
I think this is a WONTFIX because the "move" operation is basically a "copy-then-delete" operation. And deleting from the inbox then triggers the deletion from the server, which is the correct behaviour. When you move something, you are "removing" it from its original location. And "removing" is "deleting". Am I wrong?
You're right that a move operation is a copy-and-delete operation and certainly the message has to be deleted from Inbox but I don't think this means that the message has to be deleted from the server. Messages on server should only be deleted when I explicitly press the Delete button. That makes more sense I think. However, looking at other comments I feel that there is a need for selectively deleting messages from the server. I have felt a need for that function in the past. Another approach that came to my mind was to create a special folder called 'Saved Mails'. All messages moved to that folder or its sub-folders (and of course Trash) would get deleted from the server. Otherwise they stay on the server. Personally I feel a Menu item that says 'Delete Message from Server (but leave it in Inbox)' would be very powerful and useful.
Also, I don't think this is an enhancement request. It shouldn't matter what NS4.x did, what should matter is 'What's the right behaviour?'.
1. I still think that this bug is valid. If the current behavior is suppost to be correct, then the feature should be called "Delete messages on server when they are deleted *from inbox*". As it is right now the setting says "Delete messages on server when they are deleted locally". 2. Another thing, do filters cause messages to be deleted on the POP server? If they do, it would be inconsistant as the messages never got into the inbox. If they don't, do the messages get deleted on the server when they are moved/deleted manually? If not that would mean that the user cannot delete those messages on the server manually.
Pratik: this is where the Local Folder comes in. I think Mozilla should keep the message on the server *if and only if* it is in the same account. For example if I have a POP account A and "Local Folders". With the "keep messages on server" and "delete on server when delete locally" are on, I expect the message to be *still* on the server after I downloaded/moved the message as long as it is still in POP account A. However, if it is delete or moved into "Local folders", I would expect it to be deleted on the server. Of course the warning that Esther suggested still applies.
Agreed. Moving to another mail account folder should delete the message fom the server. I think this is a good approach and I agree with Esther that the user should get a warning dialog box (Probably with a check button saying 'Don't show this again' for people like me ;-))
I believe messages should not be deleted when moving manually from folder to folder. The filter operation does this in a non-interactive manner, and the messages won't be deleted. I like to think of the move operation as a relocation within the client. The server should play no part on this. There's a special folder for deleting (trash). The filter operations include it, so the manual. Even in the extreme case,when moving mails from two different accounts, I believe they should not be removed from the pop server. Regards, Luis
We don't have a consensus here. Scott, how do you want this issue to be resolved.
The mirror of the user's POP account is the Inbox folder. This should be in sync with the server if possible. Moving messages to other folders is archiving them. The POP server is not meant for archiving (unlike IMAP), therefore archived ("filed") messages should be removed from it. At present if you read your POP account mail from several clients (like home and office), filing old messages to subfolders is the only way to delete them, and not the new ones that were not yet downloaded on the other client. There is no other way to keep the server folder small and have all the messages on both clients. Unnell one has a shell account and deletes the files manually (wuth elm, pine etc.) If this "bug" is "fixed", I will have to delete old messages on one of my client, re-read the POP account (to synchronize it with my Inbox) and only then fish in Trash to move the messages to the right folders. Or copy (instead of moving) and then deleting (to force de,leting the messages on the server). These are absurd workarounds I would like to avoid. Therefore, if this "bug" is to be ever fixed (I hope not), there must be a setting for users like me to restore the 4xp behavior.
I believe that this bug shouldn't be fixed. A move is a delete and a copy. Therefore it should be removed from the server.
Jacek: depends on how this bug is fixed, if this bug is fixed in such a way that it only affects moving within the same account, you can still file your old messages in a different account i.e. "local folders"
Basic: Why should "Local Folders" be treated differently from other local folders? Do not morph this bg into "Do not delete messages on POP server when moved locally unless it is into Local Folders"
No that is not what I meant, what I meant was that the folders within the account should be considered special, as in that they do not remove the message from the server when a message is moved between them. On the other hand, a folder outside of the account will not be part of the account, therefore moving the message from any folder in the account to a folder outside of the account, would remove the message from the account and therefore remove the message from the server.
Basic: What if you want to keep the messages from different accounts separate, and at the same time delete selectively old messages on the server? In such a case any such "fix" of this "bug" would create a nightmare of workarounds (see my previous comments).
Jacek: which is why there should be a remove from server option... after all isn't that more clear than moving to a different folder will remove from the server?
Basic: I lost you. For me the present behavior is clear as every move is copy+delete. What you propose (delete the messages on the server if they are moved to folders in other accounts or the Trash folder in the same account) is much more complicated and for me counter-intuitive. BTW, let's stop spamming the bug. It seems our positions are now well defined.
Recommend wontfix. See bug 84905, "Moving message across accounts actually does copy the message", fixed several weeks ago. This "bug" does not cause real dataloss, because you still have the message in your local folders. The workaround for people used to the 4.x behavior (manually copying if you want to leave the message on the server) is much easier than the workaround for bug 84905 (copy and then delete), and the 4.x behavior is confusing because it is inconsistent with other applications.
You *must* be able to know what server, if any, a message is stored on. Otherwise cleaning up an account somewhere becomes very difficult. Currently the only way to possibly know is if the location of the message in the Folders pane corresponds with its existence on a server. So it must be either - Inbox alone mirrors the user's POP account, or - Inbox and its subfolders -"- - the whole account, including all folders in it (excluding special folders such as Sent etc..) -"- Messages moved outside the designated area must be removed from the server. Secondly, the filter action "move" and manual "move" appear to behave differently, as even messages "moved" via filter to, say, somewhere in Local Folders seem to persist on the pop server, whereas a manual move dose delete from server..? I think this is evil and messy. The existence of a message on a server should correspond with the placement of the message in the mailnews hierarchy, not depend on actions, or whether the action was manual or automatic. (Note that I may be mistaken about the current behavior, but this is what my testing of it showed)
Jesse Ruderman: the 4.x behavior *is not* what this bug is about. Please read carefully.
Basic: please explain. In what was is this bug not the opposite of bug 84905? What's different about the behavior requested in this bug and the 4.x behavior? (Keep in mind that I've never used 4.x mail and I've only started using Moz Mail as dogfood recently.)
Jesse: In 4.x it does pretty much the current behavior, when a message is moved away from the inbox, it is deleted from the pop server. What this rfe originally proposed was that it should not delete (on the server) when a message is moved away from the inbox. My personal opinion is that it should not delete (on the server), if and only if, it is between folders within the same account. If it is moved to something like "Local Folders", it should prompt the user before deleting on the server. In 4.x the current behavior made sense as pop mail messages was kept in "Local Mail"->Inbox Bug 84905 is about moving messages locally, unless I'm mistaken, it has nothing to do with removing messages from the server.
Yes, any messages moved to another folder were deleted from the POP server by NC 4.*. No disagreement here. I believe we need a good reason to change the behavior users are used to. I do not see it here. And again: if we really decide to change the behavior, we need create a UI setting enabling restoring the traditional one.
The compelling reason to change the behaviour is that manually moving and automatically moving (through filters. The option is 'Move to Folder X') have different outcomes. One deletes the mail from the server, the other does not. Does this seem like a sufficient reason?
Pratik: Maybe this is by luck, not device, but I like the outcome. When I move a message, I know what I'm doing and I expect it deleted on server. But again if I read my emails from two hosts (and I do), I would like to be able to store them (processed by filter or not) on both compuers. The difference is that I can manually move the messages *after* seeing them on both computers (the next day). In case of filters I would receive them only on the one that first gets the message. Presently, I have no problems both with manual and filter processed messages.
Actually, this bug is so morphed that it became pointless. These bug is supposed to: 1) not to delete moved messages (the original report by falcon10, Hakan on 1/27, Sheela on 2/26) 2) do not change behavior but throw up a dialog when a message is moved from a POP Inbox to another folder stating that "A move is a delete from one folder and an add to another folder. If your preference is set to delete from server when deleting locally, this will delete this message from the server." (esther on 5/31) 3) create a special folder (othen than Trash) which would trigger deleting if messae is moved into ir (Pratik on 7/10) 4) create Menu item that says 'Delete Message from Server (but leave it in Inbox)' (Pratik, same comment) 5) delete messages only if moved to another account (basic on 7/10) 6) make the result of moving messages manually and with filters consistent (Pratik on 7/10 and 7/11, Tuukka on 7/11) [I am not sure they agree which way - JP] 7) Leave as it is [WONTFIX] (Peter Lairo on 7/10, putterman on 7/10, jesse on 7/10, Jacek [me] on 7/10) So what do we do?
I say we change the behavior of the "move" filter to match the other "move" actions (drag, message->move->[folder], etc). Jacek: see bug 61635 for adding "copy" to the list of possible filter actions.
OK. So we have now: 6a) change the filter behavior to remove mail from server if filter stores a message elsewhere than Inbox which replaces 6) as the inverse solution is identical to 7) Generally, I believe that only resolution 1) or 7) should be allowed in this bug. Any other solution is bug morphing and should - according to the Bugzilla rules - be replaced by marking this one WONTFIX or INVALID and opening a new bug. Ideas 2) to 6) should be filed as separate bugs if their authors wish to do so. The only viable choice in *this* bug is implementing it (#1) or killing (#7). BTW, idea 6a) would fall in another component (Filtering) than this bug (Networking - POP) Similarly, bug 61635 is a separate bug, that already exists. It's only relevance to this one would be making this one a dup of 61635.
If this bug is not going to be fixed, I suggest 3 new bugs be filed for: 1) do not change behavior but throw up a dialog when a message is moved from a POP Inbox to another folder stating that "A move is a delete from one folder and an add to another folder. If your preference is set to delete from server when deleting locally, this will delete this message from the server." 2) change the filter behavior to remove mail from server if filter stores a message elsewhere than Inbox 3) relabel "delete messages on server when they are deleted locally" to "delete messages on server when they are deleted or moved from local inbox", or to something better. 4) create Menu item that says 'Delete Message from Server (but leave it in Inbox)'
Basic : Having the same functionality on the filters that the manual moving operations will make things even worse. Then people who reads messages on different clients won't have the great advantage of filters ( since the first one to read would delete all the matching mails ). What it's true is that both manual and non-interactive actions should have the same outcome ( and hopefully it will be leaving the messages on the server ). Wow, it was not my intention to create such a mess ! ;) Regards, Luis
Falcon: I can mark the "'move' filter should move, not copy, pop messages" dependent on bug 61635 (make 'copy' filter available) if you want.
popping up alerts is going to annoy users.
falcon: you have a point, this is why I originally suggested: 5) delete messages only if moved to another account (basic on 7/10) so that you can create filters that go to another folder within the same account to prevent delete and create filters that go to a folder outside of the account for deleting. But after thinking about it some more, I realize how this can be unintuitive to some. popups can have a "don't show this to me again" checkbox.
A long time ago (before this discussion even started) I filed the related bug 47297, which covers one of the issues mentioned in this bug. Maybe it's time to implement it!
Confusion can be avoided without a dialog box by changing "Delete messages on server when they are deleted locally" to "Leave messages on server as long as they are in the inbox" or "Leave messages on server as long as they are filed inside this account."
marking won'tfix. this is behavior we want.
Status: NEW → RESOLVED
Last Resolved: 17 years ago
Resolution: --- → WONTFIX
Navin: can we at least change the wording of the label per comment #c48 ?
filed bug 117037 to make it possible to get filters to work similar to the way it works manually when moving messages from inbox.
verified won't fix based on Putterman and Navin's comments in the bug. So the messages when moved will get removed from the server. See other bugs opened that are related to this issue.
Status: RESOLVED → VERIFIED
*** Bug 130840 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***
*** Bug 149686 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***
*** Bug 158316 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***
Personally, I think this is still a bug because I have "Leave messages on server" checked and "Until I delete or move them from Inbox" unchecked. Now when I have two mail clients on two systems that download messages from the same POP3 mailbox, I always lose part of my messages just because one of the clients deletes the messages that some filters are applied to. This is a severe shortcoming because I want to check my mails with a powerful mail client utilizing mail filters instead of using ad-supported flashified web mail interfaces both at home and at work. Or, alternatively, what about some intelligent mail-merging plugin for Thunderbird and Mozilla Mail ? I think solving this major bug would be easier.
Oh yeah, I forgot to add: There's are options in the message filters to have messages deleted locally and/or from the server, so why shouldn't we allow a local move operation without touching the server when "Until I delete or move them from Inbox" is *unchecked* ?? There will be absolutely no disadvantages in fixing this any more.
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