Closed Bug 482337 Opened 15 years ago Closed 14 years ago

IMAP: deleting messages doesn't delete them in gmail

Categories

(Thunderbird :: General, defect)

Product:
Thunderbird
Component:
General
Platform:
x86
Windows XP
Type:
defect
Priority:
Not set
Severity:
normal

Tracking

(Not tracked)

Status:
RESOLVED WORKSFORME

People

(Reporter: jjreisert, Unassigned)

References

(Blocks 1 open bug)

Details

User-Agent:       Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.9.0.7) Gecko/2009021910 Firefox/3.0.7
Build Identifier: User-Agent:       Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.9.0.6) Gecko/2009011913 Firefox/3.0.6 Build Identifier: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.9.1b3pre) Gecko/20090223 Thunderbird/3.0b2

Web-based gmail has a Delete button.  This moves the message to the trash.

Deleting the messages via Thunderbird 3.0b2 just removes the tag and archives them. They are NOT moved to the trash folder.  This means I have a bunch of "deleted" messages which aren't actually gone, but are part of my archived mail store.

I've tried various account settings in Thunderbird, but there is no option to move to the message to the [gmail] Trash folder, only Inbox, Trash (which I guess means local, though I couldn't find the deleted message there either) and [gmail] which is not the [gmail]/Trash subfolder.

Reproducible: Always
> I've tried various account settings in Thunderbird, but there is no option to
> move to the message to the [gmail] Trash folder, only Inbox, Trash (which I
> guess means local, though I couldn't find the deleted message there either) and
> [gmail] which is not the [gmail]/Trash subfolder.

Never be Gmail IMAP specific problem. Gmail IMAP particularity in your case is;
  Special trash folder name in Gmail Web Interface = "Trash".
  The "Trash" is presented to Gmail IMAP client as "[Gmail]/Trash" folder.

Have you chosen "[Gmail]/Trash" at trash folder selection UI for "delete model=move to trash"? Displayed "selected folder name" in UI is currently lowest level folder name only. So you can't distinguish "Trash" folder(=Gmail Label of "[Imap]/Trash") and "[Gmail]/Trash" folder(Gmail Folder/Label of "Trash"), except at trash folder selection list, at folder pane display, and at subscription list.

"Account wizard for Gmail IMAP" was implemented by Bug 400931. See that bug, and read all "Trash" related comments, please.
If mail is copied/moved to "[Gmail]/Trash" folder(=Gmail Folder/Label of "Trash") via Gmail IMAP, all Gmail Label is removed including "All Mail"(i.e. all copies in other Gmail IMAP folders are also deleted). And once moved to Gmail's "Trash", mail will be automaticaly purged(deleted permanently) after 30 days by Gmail. This is one of reasons why "delete model=Remove it immediately" is selected as default delete model for Gmail IMAP account of Tb. "Move to [Gmail]/Trash folder via Gmail IMAP" is better to be executed intensionally by user.

For Gmail IMAP related issue, see & read at least bugs listed in dependency tree for meta Bug 402793(with "Show Resolved") before open bug at bugzilla.mozilla.org, please.
I just tried this again.  My Account -> Server settings are:

  When I delete a message:
    (*) Move it to this folder: Trash

where I verified that Trash points to [GMAIL]/Trash

I deleted a message from a folder.  It disappeared from the folder immediately but I could not find it.  I went to Gmail via the web and the message was NOT in the Trash folder.  Rather, it had been archived, with the label removed.  

The only difference between this behavior, and "Just mark it as deleted" is that in the latter case, you get a chance to undelete it (since it was never deleted in the first place).  Also, the message isn't archived until you go to another folder, then come back to the original one where the "deleted" message lived.

Now the real problem here is that I wanted to delete the message.  I have no use for it.  But it's going to sit hidden in the archive forever, taking up space on the Gmail server.  I'll only ever run across it if I do a search, and something matches what is in this message I tried to delete.
(In reply to comment #2)
>   When I delete a message:
>     (*) Move it to this folder: Trash
> where I verified that Trash points to [GMAIL]/Trash

How did you verified it?
Gmail's "Trash" is presented as [Gmail]/Trash folder, not [GMAIL]/Trash folder (case sensitive).
What is set in next prefs.js entry for the Gmail IMAP account of Tb?
> mail.server.serverN.trash_folder_name;[Gmail]/Trash    

> I deleted a message from a folder.  It disappeared from the folder immediately
> but I could not find it.  I went to Gmail via the web and the message was NOT
> in the Trash folder.  Rather, it had been archived, with the label removed.

Oh, it's probably Gmail/Gmail IMAP specific issue.
You deleted a mail(or several mails) in a Gmail's "conversation thread", didn't you? If yes, Try next. What happens?
 1. Find a Gmail's conversation thread which has multiple mails.
    (Call thread-1 and mail-1 to mail-n)
 2. Add Gmail's label of L-A and L-B to the conversation thread at Gmail.
 3. At folder L-A: Delete(move to [Gmail]/Trash by Tb) mail-2 to mail-n
    => mail-1 remains
    At folder L-B: Delete(move to [Gmail]/Trash by Tb) mail-1 to mail-(n-1)
    => mail-n remains
 4. At folder [Gmail]/All Mail: mail-1 to mail-n remain?
 5. At Gmail Web Interface:
    - Check "All Mail", L-A, L-B, Trash.
    The Gmail's conversation thread still remains in all Gmail Label, isn't it?
 6. At Gmail Web Interface: Remove all labels except "All Mail" from the thread. 
 7. At folder "[Gmail]/All Mail" :
    Delete(move to [Gmail]/Trash by Tb) mail-2 to mail-n => mail-1 remains
 5. At Gmail Web Interface:
    - Check "All Mail", Trash.
    mail-2 to mail-n are removed from the conversation thread?
Flags: wanted-thunderbird3?
Gmail doesn't recommend using imap move to trash...
Flags: wanted-thunderbird3? → wanted-thunderbird3-
I added a Gmail IMAP account using Thunderbird's Gmail IMAP wizard, which sets "When I delete a message:" to "Remove it immediately".  When I receive a message, it shows up in Inbox, and it also shows up in [Gmail]/All Mail.

If I then delete the message from Inbox, it disappears from Inbox, but it doesn't disappear from [Gmail]/All Mail, and it doesn't appear in [Gmail]/Trash (neither immediately, nor after a restart).

If I change "When I delete a message:" to "Just mark it as deleted", as recommended by Google <http://mail.google.com/support/bin/answer.py?hl=en&answer=78892>, then deleting a message from Inbox marks it as deleted in Inbox, removes it from [Gmail]/All Mail, and makes it appear in [Gmail]/Trash.

Despite being marked deleted in Inbox, the message never disappears from Inbox, not even after a restart.

Neither behavior is optimal.  The optimal behavior would be for deleting the message to remove it from Inbox, remove it from [Gmail]/All Mail, and make it appear in [Gmail]/Trash.  Suboptimal but sufficient behavior would be for the message that is "Just marked as deleted" to eventually disappear from Inbox, which is what used to happen until a few weeks ago.
Status: UNCONFIRMED → NEW
Ever confirmed: true
(In reply to comment #5)
> If I change "When I delete a message:" to "Just mark it as deleted", as
> recommended by Google
> <http://mail.google.com/support/bin/answer.py?hl=en&answer=78892>, then
> deleting a message from Inbox marks it as deleted in Inbox, removes it from
> [Gmail]/All Mail, and makes it appear in [Gmail]/Trash.

I use this all the time, and my Trash folder is empty...

> Despite being marked deleted in Inbox, the message never disappears from Inbox,
> not even after a restart.

Don't see this either, actually it removes them for IDLE too, which is a bit annoying...
 
> Neither behavior is optimal.  The optimal behavior would be for deleting the
> message to remove it from Inbox, remove it from [Gmail]/All Mail, and make it
> appear in [Gmail]/Trash. 

Isn't that what happens if you choose the "move to Trash" model, which is discouraged by gmail.
(In reply to comment #6)
> Isn't that what happens if you choose the "move to Trash" model, which is
> discouraged by gmail.

According to Google's recommended IMAP client settings <http://mail.google.com/support/bin/answer.py?hl=en&answer=78892>, the "move to Trash" model "will delete a message in all folders," which presumably includes "copies" of the message in other folders that you don't intend to delete.
(In reply to comment #5)

Myk Melez, your comment is DUP bug 488097. Read bug 488097 and documents pointed in it, please. Read also bug 475852 for "[Gmail]/All Mail" related discussion.
Note: both bugs are listed in Dependency Tree for Bug 402793 which is set in Blocks: field of this bug.
(In reply to comment #8)
> (In reply to comment #5)
> 
> Myk Melez, your comment is DUP bug 488097.

If that's true, then I think this is a duplicate of that one.
(In reply to comment #9)
> If that's true, then I think this is a duplicate of that one.

Myk Melez, have you read Comment #2?
> I just tried this again.  My Account -> Server settings are:
>   When I delete a message:
>    (*) Move it to this folder: Trash
> where I verified that Trash points to [GMAIL]/Trash
(Note: reporter says [GMAIL]. not [Gmail].) 

Your case & bug 488097 is next, isn't it?
>   When I delete a message:
>    (*) Remove it immediately <= Set by "account wizard for Gmail IMAP" of Tb 3
>    mail.server.serverX.trash_folder_name = [Gmail]/Trash
>                              <= Set by "account wizard for Gmail IMAP" of Tb 3
Myk Melez, one of expectations by bug opener of Bug 488097 was different from yours.
> actual:
>   mail.server.serverX.trash_folder_name = [Gmail]/Trash
> bug opener's expectation:
>   mail.server.serverX.trash_folder_name = [Google Mail]/Trash
So, your comment is never DUP of Bug 488097 nor this bug. Sorry for my confusion.
(In reply to comment #11)
> Myk Melez, one of expectations by bug opener of Bug 488097 was different from
> yours.

Actually I think all three of our expectations are exactly the same, although we may each be fumbling towards an explanation using imprecise terminology and incorrect suggestions about what might be causing the problem and how it might be solved.

All of us are reporting a problem as users of Thunderbird, and our conceptual model of what should happen when you delete a Gmail message is that it should move to Trash.

We think that way because that is how Thunderbird works with every other IMAP server, it's how Thunderbird works with other kinds of mail accounts, and it's how file deletion works on popular filesystems.

And the problem we are all reporting is that when you delete a Gmail message in Thunderbird, it does not move to Trash, neither with the default configuration of a Gmail account nor with any other configuration any of us have tried.

You keep trying to focus us on the machine model, i.e. the various technical details of how Google's IMAP server works and the various configuration options available in Thunderbird (which we have admittedly been clumsily fiddling with in an attempt to accomplish our goal of making things "just work").

In fact, it seems as if you will not take our bug reports seriously until we learn the machine model and are as knowledgable as you are about it (and about all the various bugs that have been filed against various aspects of it).

From a user's perspective, that feels like punishing us for reporting a legitimate problem, which is an unproductive approach to designing and building an application that is intended to be used by regular users.

It would be much more productive to take the following approach when dealing with this user-reported issue:

1. Figure out how the users who are reporting this issue expect Thunderbird to behave in their own conceptual model.

2. Figure out whether that represents the expectations of the majority/plurality of Thunderbird users, a significant minority of users, a small number of users, or almost no one.

3. Based on the outcome of step 2, figure out how (if possible) to make that either the default behavior, a configurable behavior (documented in a step-by-step user-friendly guide), a behavior that an extension might be able to implement, or a behavior that Thunderbird will not support in any way.
(In reply to comment #12)

(Off-Topic)
Myk Melez, when Mozilla foundation started to use bugzilla.mozilla.org as place for user support or as "Customer Help/Support Center"? AFAIK, Bugzilla system for development of Mozilla family(==bugzilla.mozilla.org) is still for developers and still pointed officially by http://www.mozilla.org/developer/ only.
(In reply to comment #13)
> Myk Melez, when Mozilla foundation started to use bugzilla.mozilla.org as place
> for user support or as "Customer Help/Support Center"?

This is not a help request, it's a bug report, and BMO is also intended for users reporting bugs.  Users don't have to understand and describe bugs like developers do in order to report them and contribute to their resolution
(In reply to comment #5)
> If I change "When I delete a message:" to "Just mark it as deleted", (snip)
>(snip)
> Despite being marked deleted in Inbox, the message never disappears from Inbox,
> not even after a restart.

In this case, Tb keeps information about mail in Inbox of \Deleted status after uid xxx store flag \Deleted, and displays it with read "X" icon.
It's removed by "expunge" operation of Tb, if ordinal IMAP server and single IMAP client environment.
However, "Gmail IMAP/Gmail" behaves as if "expunge is issued by other client" after the "uid xxx store flag \Deleted" by Tb, unless special setting by feature of "Gmail Lab" is enabled.
This mismatch possibly causes the funny phenomenon you saw.
Myk Melez, open separate bug for it, with setting "Blocks: 402793", please.
(In reply to comment #15)
> Myk Melez, open separate bug for it, with setting "Blocks: 402793", please.

Ok, I filed bug 489221 about it.
Phenomenon of "deleted mail doesn't automatically go to [Gmail]/Trash with IMAP delete model of 'Move to trash', without appropriate settings by user which is required setting for using Gmail IMAP" is already morphed to issue of "move target folder for delete other than [Gmail]/Trash is impossible to use with IMAP delete model of 'Move to trash'"(bug 610667), by enhancement of "XLIST command support" and change of "always use trash returned by XLIST([Gmail]/Trash if Display Language: of Gmail is English(US)), regardless of trash folder selection at 'Move to trash' model".

Closing as WORKSFORME, although I believe INVALID unless Severity=Enhancemnt.
Status: NEW → RESOLVED
Closed: 14 years ago
Resolution: --- → WORKSFORME
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