496375 - Tango icon for Send button in composition toolbar ambiguous

Status: RESOLVED FIXED

(Thunderbird :: Message Compose Window, defect)

Description

[rsx11m]

First of all, while I appreciate the efforts to freshen up the default theme
for Thunderbird 3.0, count me to the group of people who feel that some of the tango icons don't go too well with Windows XP (at least not the Windows Classic theme I'm using) or are counterintuitive like this one.

This specific bug is about the "Send" icon in the composition toolbar. Without the text underneath, it would be hard to identify what it actually implies.
The discussions I've seen were speculating about it being a framed picture or mirror, I was actually first thinking about an integrated circuit chip. The "stamp" analogy is not straight-forward (maybe just because the stamp isn't actually stamped).

I've downloaded the Tango theme for 2.0 and replaced the new default icon with its "Send" icon (screen shot follows, link to that theme is in the URL field). The "closed envelope with an arrow away from the user" appears to be a much better analogy to "sending" than the stamp. I'd suggest to replace the stamp with something like that, which would also be closer to the current "envelope with arrow" icon in 2.0. I'm aware that the theme author would have to authorize the use of his icon, I'm mainly using this version here to illustrate the difference.

I'm filing this for Windows XP and thus the qute theme, though the same issue also exists for gnomestripe (therefore also blocking bug 415415).

Comment 1

[rsx11m]

Attachment: Comparison of Tango "Send" icons

New TB 3.0 default "Send" icon vs. Tango Icons 0.7.0 for TB 2.0 on Windows XP with Windows Classic OS theme.

Comment 2

[[:Aureliano Buendía]]

Not polemic but only my opinion: I disagree from this bug.

Comment 3

[rsx11m]

And why? I guess I've stated the reasons why I think that the current icon is not clearly conveying what the button is doing, so I'd expect a bit more than just "disagree" for the purpose of discussion. Like and dislike are subjective issues, function and clarity objective ones.

Comment 4

[[:Aureliano Buendía]]

(In reply to comment #3)
> And why? 
Because is a stamp and gives me the idea of pasting stamps can send the letter.
Maybe, for me, could be clearer with a postmark on the stamp...

Ciao.

Comment 5

[[:Aureliano Buendía]]

(In reply to comment #3)
Probably I'm more older than you: when I was little, I used the stamps. :-D

Comment 6

[rsx11m]

Those tiny pieces of paper are still quite popular with the postal service
here as well, and one sometimes still needs those old-fashioned means of communication. A postmark on the stamp would probably make it clearer, or
paste the stamp onto an envelope if you like that as a compromise, but just
an empty stamp gave me a puzzling time at first.

Comment 7

[Andreas Nilsson (:andreasn)]

The reason I went with the stamp instead of the earlier envelope+arrow is because I wanted to reduce the over-usage of envelopes in Thunderbird in general (already lots of envelopes+arrows in reply, reply all, forward etc.).
I agree that it should be clearer though, so I will fix up another version that have a motive and a stamp.

Comment 8

[rsx11m]

Whatever helps. If you keep the stamp, a postmark would probably be the most important feature to distinguish it from a framed picture or similar.

> already lots of envelopes+arrows in reply, reply all, forward etc.

It is my understanding that bug 474523 would remove those from the default toolbar anyway, thus reducing the number of visible envelopes.

Comment 9

[Bryan Clark (DevTools PM) [:clarkbw]]

we do have attachment 374044 [details] from bug 476695 which came about for similar reasons It might make sense to try that.

Comment 10

[[:Aureliano Buendía]]

(In reply to comment #9)
> we do have attachment 374044 [details] from bug 476695 which came about for similar

For me look great.

Comment 11

[Christoph Grether]

I'm a long time Thunderbird user and even I wouldn't guess, what the "Stamp" icon means.
The old icon with the arrow was clear. Especially new users know, what the icon did.
When I saw the "stamp" icon the first time, I had big problems to see, what it is. It looks like a "picture frame" for me.
The "Send" icon from the tango theme with the arrow, which was shown by rsx11m is much more clear.

Comment 12

[Dan]

Even though I still think the new icons don't really mesh with the overall look of XP, I do think the stamp with the postmark is a little clearer.  But I still think it would be confusing for new users, because a stamp really doesn't convey an action.  What about adding wavy lines to the left edge of the stamp, or adding an airplane or something else to the stamp that indicates movement?

Comment 13

[rsx11m]

Any more opinions?  :-)

The suggestion in comment #9 with the stamp motive and especially the postmark is certainly an improvement over the current version. I also like the idea in comment #12 to add some dynamics of "sending" as a process by adding some speed lines or an arrow.

Comment 14

[Dan]

The key is to indicate motion, an action.  But onne additional idea to make it more clear would be to add an "e" with a circle around it (like the @ sign), to indicate e-mail...maybe within the postmark itself, or at least somewhere on the stamp.

Comment 15

[rsx11m]

The icon in attachment 374044 [details] is 32x32, thus it would be interesting
to see how this looks like in 24x24 (or 16x16 for small toolbar icons, which could also cover the Sent folder icon), if possible with the suggestions in
the previous comments already incorporated?

Comment 16

[Andreas Nilsson (:andreasn)]

Attachment: new send icon

Comment 17

[Will Roberts [:bws42]]

One problem with adding a postmark to the stamp is that they can be vastly different from one place to the next. I have a certain image of a stamp and a postmark on a letter in my mind based on the mail that I receive, and it does not look like the one used on the icon. I don't know if there's a more universal postmark that would be recognizable by more people though.

Comment 18

[Dan]

What about incorporating an @ sign into the postmark?  That is more universal and would make the function clearer.

Also, any type of indicator the icon that indicates action or movement would be an improvement.

Comment 19

[rsx11m]

Making the postmark a symbolized '@' would also correspond to the suggestions for a redesign of the general Thunderbird application logo, which according to the drafts would carry a @-seal on the envelope.

My reason for asking how it looks in 24x24 was to get an idea how much space
is left to add either speed lines or arrows outside of the stamp to indicate movement. Apparently though, adding such would require to reduce the size of
the stamp further, thus probably loosing the details of the motive and the postmark inside.

Comment 20

[Dan]

Good point about the size and adding lines outside the stamp.

What about a simple right pointing arrow in the top left of the inside of the stamp?  That would be consistent with many other icons representing send or forward, and still indicates movement.

Also, if you slightly reduced the size of the redesigned @ related postmark it could work quite well.

I think an arrow in the top left, and the @ postmark in the bottom right would be an almost perfect way to make the stamp icon show the true function and not confuse users.

Comment 21

[rsx11m]

Bryan, how do you want to continue? Waiting for further comments from any 3.0b3 feedback, or now that it's (almost) released, put an alternate version into the nightly builds? I think there are sufficient suggestions here by now.

Comment 22

[Andreas Nilsson (:andreasn)]

Attachment: postmark with @ symbol and arrow

Something like this, perhaps?

Comment 23

[[:Aureliano Buendía]]

Look good but I dont like arrow: in my opinion postmark with @ simbol look very good and is intuitive... but others user dont have the same idea.
For me is sufficient to clearly only the @ simbol

Comment 24

[dreadnaut]

The last version seems good: the arrow helps to convey the idea of action. The @ is also a nice addition; I am not sure which is "intuition" that Aureliano is describing, but it definitely helps to relate the drawing to email, and therefore to stamp/send --before it was still too close to a frame or painting.

Comment 25

[rsx11m]

I'm too still with Dan. The green arrow certainly helps to indicate an action,
whereas the red postmark in the previous version made it somewhat clearer that
this represents in fact a stamp. Having both postmark and arrow may overdo it.

Thus, I'd either go with attachment 389662 [details], combining the new stamp
symbol with the familiar green arrow for "sending"; or, as was discussed a bit
earlier, attachment 384365 [details] with an @-sign replacing the more generic
postmark in that version.

As a variant for the Sent folder, if the arrow-version is taken as the "send
action" icon, a modified version as folder icon replacing the arrow with the
postmark symbol could be used to indicate "this has been sent" as a metaphor.

Comment 26

[Dan]

I agree with rsx11m too, and think you absolutely need the arrow to indicate movement, plus it ties back (slightly) to the old icons.  Without it, new users especially will likely be confused.  My only suggestion for the @ and arrow version posted would be to make the @ more prominent (either a different color, bolder etc.).  Otherwise it looks great!

The suggestion for the Sent folder is great as well and would continue the theme nicely.

Comment 27

[Bryan Clark (DevTools PM) [:clarkbw]]

(In reply to comment #21)
> Bryan, how do you want to continue? Waiting for further comments from any 3.0b3
> feedback, or now that it's (almost) released, put an alternate version into the
> nightly builds? I think there are sufficient suggestions here by now.

I like the new icon changes, thanks for working on that Andreas.  It's a lot busier than the previous icon but lets try to land this so we can see how it feels in the nightlies.

rsx11m, can you put together the patch?

Comment 28

[rsx11m]

Bryan, thanks for the offer. While I figured out how to replace icons in the toolbars, I don't have the right tools available to correctly replace the icon (along with its inactive and hover versions) in the composite PNG image (with transparency retained, etc.). Thus, it may be better if someone else with more experience could do that.

Comment 29

[Andreas Nilsson (:andreasn)]

I can fix a patch first thing in the morning tomorrow (European time)!

Comment 30

[Andreas Nilsson (:andreasn)]

Attachment: patch on trunk with the icon in small and regular size

Comment 31

[rsx11m]

Attachment: patch icons (gnomestripe) on Windows Classic theme

Thanks, I'm reposting the icons after applying the patch for those who don't
have the code checked out (there were only the Linux gnomestripe icons in the patch, interestingly they are 22x22 rather than 24x24 in regular size on qute). For illustration, I've used the Windows Classic theme background color.

Comment 32

[Andreas Nilsson (:andreasn)]

Attachment: patch for qute (xp) in small and regular size

Comment 33

[Mark Banner (:standard8)]

Comment on attachment 389898 [details] [diff] [review]
patch on trunk with the icon in small and regular size

I said on irc I'd review the patch, this looks fine as long as Bryan is happy.

Comment 34

[rsx11m]

I've just applied attachment 391557 [details] [diff] [review] and this looks good to me.
The new icon also resolves the shift-on-hover bug 503567 for Windows.

(In reply to comment #25)
> As a variant for the Sent folder, if the arrow-version is taken as the "send
> action" icon, a modified version as folder icon replacing the arrow with the
> postmark symbol could be used to indicate "this has been sent" as a metaphor.

Do you want to address the folder icon (assuming there is sufficient interest to do so) in the bug here or shall I spin this off as a new bug?

Comment 35

[Bryan Clark (DevTools PM) [:clarkbw]]

Comment on attachment 389898 [details] [diff] [review]
patch on trunk with the icon in small and regular size

good for me

Comment 36

[Bryan Clark (DevTools PM) [:clarkbw]]

Comment on attachment 391557 [details] [diff] [review]
patch for qute (xp) in small and regular size

I kind of doubt this needs code review but maybe we can get someone else to sign off on this

Comment 37

[Bryan Clark (DevTools PM) [:clarkbw]]

(In reply to comment #34)
> Do you want to address the folder icon (assuming there is sufficient interest
> to do so) in the bug here or shall I spin this off as a new bug?

Lets spin that off so this can land and close

Comment 38

[Mark Banner (:standard8)]

Comment on attachment 391557 [details] [diff] [review]
patch for qute (xp) in small and regular size

I'll do this in the morning.

Comment 39

[rsx11m]

(In reply to comment #37)
> [folder icon] Lets spin that off so this can land and close

Agreed, filed as bug 507508.

Comment 40

[Mark Banner (:standard8)]

I've pushed both patches as one changeset:

http://hg.mozilla.org/comm-central/rev/356b7b2836e0