Closed Bug 1474591 Opened Last year Closed 10 months ago

Clarify default theme description ("Light on Dark" theme is no longer selectable when OS is in Dark mode)

Categories

(Toolkit :: Add-ons Manager, defect, P3)

63 Branch
defect

Tracking

()

VERIFIED FIXED
mozilla66
Tracking Status
firefox-esr52 --- unaffected
firefox-esr60 --- unaffected
firefox61 --- unaffected
firefox62 --- unaffected
firefox63 --- wontfix
firefox64 --- wontfix
firefox65 --- wontfix
firefox66 --- verified

People

(Reporter: Fanolian+BMO, Assigned: dao)

References

Details

(Keywords: nightly-community, regression, reproducible)

Attachments

(6 files)

Steps to reproduce:
1. In Windows 10, set default app mode to Dark from Settings > Personalization > Colors
2. In Nightly 2018-07-10 build, try to set it to "Light on Dark" theme (accent color on titlebar; "Default" theme in previous builds).

Actual result:
There is no way to select this theme anymore.
Meanwhile in Windows' default Light mode, I can still select this theme by choosing "Default" theme. 
In conclusion, there are 3 built-in themes for Light mode but only 2 for Dark mode.

More info about "Light on Dark" theme by Stephen Horlander from bug 1368808 comment 6:
> We could respect the system Dark / Light settings, like we do for picking up
> the Title Bar color system setting, but probably not for 57. I think there
> might even be a bug about that already?
> 
> What we have now are essentially four settings:
> 
> +-------------------+
> |Automatic          |
> +-------------------+
> |Light on Dark      |
> +-------------------+
> |Light              |
> +-------------------+
> |Dark               |
> +-------------------+
> 
> Automatic being the out of the box setting that defaults to Light on Dark,
> but that respects some system settings like Title Bar accent color and High
> Contrast mode.
> 
> We only list three options now though: Default, Light and Dark
> 
> I think should just make it more explicit and add Automatic as the default
> and selecting another option would override that.
Blocks: 1368808
Has Regression Range: --- → yes
Has STR: --- → yes
Flags: needinfo?(mhowell)
(In reply to Fanolian from comment #0)
> In conclusion, there are 3 built-in themes for Light mode but only 2 for
> Dark mode.

This is correct. This is because Light is the default on Windows, so we can't infer intent from it. Why would you enable dark mode OS-wide and then disable it in Firefox?
Component: Widget: Win32 → Add-ons Manager
Flags: needinfo?(mhowell)
Product: Core → Toolkit
Blocks: 1466335
(In reply to Dão Gottwald [::dao] from comment #1)
> (In reply to Fanolian from comment #0)
> > In conclusion, there are 3 built-in themes for Light mode but only 2 for
> > Dark mode.
> 
> This is correct. This is because Light is the default on Windows, so we
> can't infer intent from it. Why would you enable dark mode OS-wide and then
> disable it in Firefox?

I did not realize a decision has been made in bug 1466335 comment 7. I thought it was a regression rather than an intended behavior.

I do not use light theme in OS dark mode. When given a choice, however, I would use light-on-dark theme instead of light theme simply due to the added accent color on tab bar when titlebar is not enabled. But it is just my personal preference.
I don't think a lot of people associate the theme setting in Windows with the theme of their browser. To at least have the option to still use the default Firefox theme would be nice. 

Microsoft don't even do that themselves. You can use light and dark themes of Microsoft Edge totally independent from the Windows 10 theme setting.
Even on macOS Mojave, I'd like to choose which Firefox theme to use regardless the general OS theme.
I really enjoy the blend of the dark menu bar with the beautiful light-on-dark "Default" theme of Firefox.

Let people choose!! Forcing it is a bad move...
(In reply to Brunno Pleffken from comment #4)
> Even on macOS Mojave, I'd like to choose which Firefox theme to use
> regardless the general OS theme.
> I really enjoy the blend of the dark menu bar with the beautiful
> light-on-dark "Default" theme of Firefox.

As of macOS Mojave, dark mode isn't just about the menu bar but all about apps and the OS appearance in general. It's a pretty explicit choice.
(In reply to Dão Gottwald [::dao] from comment #5)
> As of macOS Mojave, dark mode isn't just about the menu bar but all about
> apps and the OS appearance in general. It's a pretty explicit choice.

I understand, but as I said: as Firefox allows it, let people choose!
The argument "why would you...", "people will not..." is a bad UX movement.

My suggestion to embrace both requests: create a new "Auto" option to reproduce the OS behavior on Windows and macOS and make it the default option, but let us still choose between Light, Dark and Light-on-Dark themes.
Component: Themes → Add-ons Manager
(My Win10 accent color is set to "default blue")

I believe users concerning this bug are currently treating "default theme" as a separate light theme with a tad of accent color on it, rather than a light/dark choice that merely follows OS's setting (well, yes, accent color is an OS choice...). This reason may not be developer's intent, but it is how it is especially when accent color can be set drastically different from the set-in-stone light grey from "light theme".
Bug 1368808, while in good intent, brings a more reasonable solution (follows what users set in OS) by removing a choice that has been in Firefox since the inception of Photon redesign. This will definitely catch users by surprise when their theme is no longer available.

I don't know the situation in MacOS, but Windows 10's dark mode is still in a messy state. Majority of Win32 applications, including Windows Explorer, do not support dark skins, let alone auto-following OS's setting. Even some Microsoft UWPs do not support it yet. This bug may be of a less concern when things are more consistent in the future.

I think this bug can be WONTFIX when:
1. the issue is considered and a decision is made (which I didn't realize it is already in bug 1466335 comment 7);
2. users are informed of the change (the release note suggested in bug 1368808 comment 20 does not cover the scope of this bug);
3. Mozilla support is aware of this issue and prepared for the enquiries when bug 1368808 hits release.

p.s. Is it possible to recreate such theme (a theme that follows OS accent color) and put on AMO? Users can be referred to AMO and call it a day.
Light-on-Dark theme is still possible when Win10 default app mode is Light.
Duplicate of this bug: 1475215
OS: Windows 10 → All
Hardware: x86_64 → All
Summary: "Light on Dark" (Default) theme is no longer selectable when Win10 default app mode is set to Dark → "Light on Dark" (Default) theme is no longer selectable when OS default app mode is set to Dark
Would it be possible to handle this the same way as for touch mode ?

The UI density picker has a "Auto switch density" checkbox at the end of the picker, the same could be done here.
Hi Philipp and Stephen, do you have any advice what to do for this bug ?
Flags: needinfo?(shorlander)
Flags: needinfo?(philipp)
(In reply to Tim Nguyen :ntim from comment #12)
> Would it be possible to handle this the same way as for touch mode ?
> 
> The UI density picker has a "Auto switch density" checkbox at the end of the
> picker, the same could be done here.

That sounds like a sensible choice and it is also what Stephen suggested in the other bug.
»Automatic« could be unclear in terms of naming for this though. Windows Mail uses »Use my Windows mode«, which seems more descriptive.

So in the »My Themes« section you'd have
- Use my Windows mode
- Default
- Light
- Dark

Adding Emanuela here too since this touches on themes and add-ons a bit.
Flags: needinfo?(philipp) → needinfo?(emanuela)
Default already meant "respect my Windows settings" for the longest time, because we'd always respect things like different different Win XP themes, Aero Glass vs. Basic, High Contrast, and the title bar color.
Following what Dao just said, my suggestion is to keep 3 themes, but with a more precise description for the Default theme. It can be something like "A theme with the operating system color scheme."
Flags: needinfo?(emanuela)
(In reply to emanuela [ux team] from comment #16)
> Following what Dao just said, my suggestion is to keep 3 themes, but with a
> more precise description for the Default theme. It can be something like "A
> theme with the operating system color scheme."

So, the current "Default" (light-on-dark) theme won't exist anymore?
Sending to product to determine. Pdol -- note that there's some implication with the experience wrt extensions following the "browser style".
Flags: needinfo?(pdolanjski)
Trying to chime in since pdol is out for a month.
Do we have telemetry on usage of default theme in Windows dark mode?
I feel like the most important is preserving user's themes with the 63 update - my understanding is that comment 14 would allow this but comment 16 would not - do I get this right?
Flags: needinfo?(pdolanjski)
(In reply to Romain Testard [:RT] from comment #19)
> Trying to chime in since pdol is out for a month.
> Do we have telemetry on usage of default theme in Windows dark mode?

We don't, afaik.

> I feel like the most important is preserving user's themes with the 63
> update - my understanding is that comment 14 would allow this but comment 16
> would not - do I get this right?

Yes. Comment 16 is consistent with how we're treating pretty much every other Windows theme customization.
David: What are the next steps for this bug?
Flags: needinfo?(ddurst)
The next step on this is for:

1) Design & Product to decide whether there will be three options[1] for built-in themes or four[2].
2) Design & Product to name those options, to more clearly communicate the intent of the built-in theme selected.
3) Then we can fix this bug based on what's provided to the user.

Leaving the CC on shorlander for the design view, and re-CCing Product. The Product desire (#c19) to keep things as the user had them is a little bit at odds with other mentions in this thread, and bug 1368808 comment 6 is not current/direct enough to be taken as a position from Design. [If #c16 should, that's fine. We just need to decide outside of this bug and have someone state the verdict in this bug.]

[1] this is what is there currently, called: Default, Light, Dark.
[2] this is what's proposed elsewhere in this bug: Automatic, Light-on-Dark {to be named} Light, Dark. This requires a new built-in to be created.
Flags: needinfo?(ddurst) → needinfo?(rtestard)
Given we have no telemetry on current usage of the default theme in Windows dark mode my opinion is we should retain user's existing themes by providing 4 built-in themes. This also seems to align with UX recommendation per Comment 14 and https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1368808#c6.

I agree with Philip that "automatic" is unclear and naming should be:
- Use my Windows mode
- Default
- Light
- Dark

Philip and Steven does that sound right to you?
Flags: needinfo?(rtestard) → needinfo?(philipp)
(In reply to Romain Testard [:RT] from comment #23)
> Given we have no telemetry on current usage of the default theme in Windows
> dark mode my opinion is we should retain user's existing themes by providing
> 4 built-in themes. This also seems to align with UX recommendation per
> Comment 14 and https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1368808#c6.
> 
> I agree with Philip that "automatic" is unclear and naming should be:
> - Use my Windows mode
> - Default
> - Light
> - Dark
> 
> Philip and Steven does that sound right to you?

This does not sound right to me. For starters, it's not clear to me what default is supposed to mean other than that it's the default. Presumably by "default" you mean "light and dark" or something like that? We cannot name the theme that way, because it's not always light and dark. Instead, as mentioned before, this theme already follows OS settings, and we've now extended that to cover dark mode too.
> This does not sound right to me. For starters, it's not clear to me what
> default is supposed to mean other than that it's the default. Presumably by
> "default" you mean "light and dark" or something like that? We cannot name
> the theme that way, because it's not always light and dark. Instead, as
> mentioned before, this theme already follows OS settings, and we've now
> extended that to cover dark mode too.

In addition, one of the reasons this bug exists is because even Light and Dark are unclear in the face of the OS mode. What these options listed really mean are:

- Use whatever my OS mode is
- Use that old default, which was neither light nor dark; ignore my OS mode
- Use light; ignore my OS mode
- Use dark; ignore my OS mode

It may be clearer to revise this control to:
- use OS mode: y/n
-- (if no) choose: light, dark, sort-of-light-on-dark (or whatever)

I think the real challenge for Design is describing the previous "Default" in a meaningful way.
63 is now in beta so string changes won't be easy.
(In reply to Brunno Pleffken from comment #27)
> Let's suppose: I use macOS Mojave dark theme and want to use the
> light-on-dark theme as before because its fancy and I'm fine with it, how
> can I do it?

First of all I would suggest you shouldn't use the macOS Mojave dark theme if you don't want apps to be dark.

My second suggestion would be to install a custom Firefox theme that mimmicks the look your after.
What a bad decision. Give us a choice. Really I miss that blue bar using Default theme with Titlebar disabled.
(In reply to Dão Gottwald [::dao] from comment #28)
> (In reply to Brunno Pleffken from comment #27)
> > Let's suppose: I use macOS Mojave dark theme and want to use the
> > light-on-dark theme as before because its fancy and I'm fine with it, how
> > can I do it?
> 
> First of all I would suggest you shouldn't use the macOS Mojave dark theme
> if you don't want apps to be dark.
> 
> My second suggestion would be to install a custom Firefox theme that
> mimmicks the look your after.

Installing a theme to achieve the look would be painful, given that the light on dark (default) used the color from your OS (at least on Win10), so you'd need to make a separate theme for each OS color.
Even if it is decided this new behavior is what's desired, it's probably not desired behavior that when you hover over "Default" theme it shows the color from the OS (like it used to), but then changes back to dark if the OS apps are set to dark (at least on Win10).
(In reply to keeganwitt from comment #30)
> (In reply to Dão Gottwald [::dao] from comment #28)
> > (In reply to Brunno Pleffken from comment #27)
> > > Let's suppose: I use macOS Mojave dark theme and want to use the
> > > light-on-dark theme as before because its fancy and I'm fine with it, how
> > > can I do it?
> > 
> > First of all I would suggest you shouldn't use the macOS Mojave dark theme
> > if you don't want apps to be dark.
> > 
> > My second suggestion would be to install a custom Firefox theme that
> > mimmicks the look your after.
> 
> Installing a theme to achieve the look would be painful, given that the
> light on dark (default) used the color from your OS (at least on Win10), so
> you'd need to make a separate theme for each OS color.

Not to belabor the point, but if you are using "Automatically pick an accent color from my background" setting in Win10 you'd have to keep changing themes if you are using a slideshow as background, and the number of colors you'd have to deal with is untenable.  But maybe on OS X the situation is better.  I don't know what theme options are there.
We're already over a week into 63 being on beta. I suspect it's highly unlikely we're going to get a fix out for this in 63 if we're still undecided on the solution.

Clearing the 63 tracking flag.
Priority: -- → P3
Duplicate of this bug: 1494008
(In reply to Tim Nguyen :ntim (please use needinfo?) from comment #36)
> Created attachment 9016990 [details]
> Mockup from invision

This has problems similar to previous proposals if you take into account non-default OS themes (other than dark mode), where Automatic == Regular, i.e. Regular will inherit the system-level theme settings.
(In reply to Dão Gottwald [::dao] from comment #37)
> (In reply to Tim Nguyen :ntim (please use needinfo?) from comment #36)
> > Created attachment 9016990 [details]
> > Mockup from invision
> 
> This has problems similar to previous proposals if you take into account
> non-default OS themes (other than dark mode), where Automatic == Regular,
> i.e. Regular will inherit the system-level theme settings.

Then instead of calling it regular if you're concerned that people may interpret Automatic == Regular, replace "Regular" with "Firefox" or, perhaps, "Colorful" or literally any word that doesn't == automatic == regular == default...
(In reply to Akenera from comment #38)
> (In reply to Dão Gottwald [::dao] from comment #37)
> > (In reply to Tim Nguyen :ntim (please use needinfo?) from comment #36)
> > > Created attachment 9016990 [details]
> > > Mockup from invision
> > 
> > This has problems similar to previous proposals if you take into account
> > non-default OS themes (other than dark mode), where Automatic == Regular,
> > i.e. Regular will inherit the system-level theme settings.
> 
> Then instead of calling it regular if you're concerned that people may
> interpret Automatic == Regular, replace "Regular" with "Firefox" or,
> perhaps, "Colorful" or literally any word that doesn't == automatic ==
> regular == default...

I wasn't talking about people's interpretation but about how the default / regular theme actually works. It *is* for the most part automatic.
> It *is* for the most part automatic.

Perhaps we should make that "Regular" theme stop adjusting to any platform colors and just use the Photon ones.

So:

Automatic:
- Adjusts to Windows accent color
- Adjusts to dark mode
- Adjusts to high contrast

Regular:
- Hardcoded Photon defaults (dark titlebar and light navbar)

Light:
- Hardcoded to light colors

Dark:
- Hardcoded to dark colors

I have to admit that's far from ideal having so many default themes though.

Or perhaps, we can have a checkbox similar to "Auto switch density" and named "Apply system colors" where if that's not checked, the default theme does not adapt to any system configurations (Win accent color, dark mode, high contrast...) and gets the photon defaults hardcoded.
(In reply to Tim Nguyen :ntim (please use needinfo?) from comment #40)
> Regular:
> - Hardcoded Photon defaults (dark titlebar and light navbar)
> 
> Light:
> - Hardcoded to light colors
> 
> Dark:
> - Hardcoded to dark colors
> 
> I have to admit that's far from ideal having so many default themes though.
> 
> Or perhaps, we can have a checkbox similar to "Auto switch density" and
> named "Apply system colors" where if that's not checked, the default theme
> does not adapt to any system configurations (Win accent color, dark mode,
> high contrast...) and gets the photon defaults hardcoded.

Yep, these are starting to sound like more realistic options. I'm not convinced it's worth the effort and added UI complexity, and I'm leaning towards wontfixing this or morphing it to address comment 16.
Well great. Now the bug has rolled out to live. 63.0

I prefer using the "default" theme as it takes from my OS colors - I am using windows high contrast and it is a dark theme but the "dark" theme in Firefox is really "Light gray" and no color on titlebar. 

When I had default selected before this it would use the high contrast colors from my OS, giving the correct color on the daskbasr and ACTUAL dark menus as I designed them. Now I cannot force this to happen anymore. I rolled back from beta to live to avoid it but I can't avoid it any longer and it hasn't been fixed. As others have said, new button that selects the default theme and a seperate automatic button are now needed.

I can only select 2 out of the 3 themes now.
(In reply to cookieboyeli from comment #44)
> Well great. Now the bug has rolled out to live. 63.0
> 
> I prefer using the "default" theme as it takes from my OS colors - I am
> using windows high contrast and it is a dark theme but the "dark" theme in
> Firefox is really "Light gray" and no color on titlebar. 

I'm not sure I understand. Automatic dark theme selection shouldn't happen with high contrast themes. Have you enabled both high contrast mode and dark mode in Windows, or something?
Duplicate of this bug: 1501373
Coming over from https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1501373

This is NOT limited to Windows Dark theme. I have Windows 10 Pro x64, my Windows theme is set to "Custom" with grey backgrounds and dark blue and light blue title bars. Most certainly NOT Dark theme, but selecting "Default" theme in FF sets it to Dark theme. HOVERING over "Default" changes the window to what it *should* be, but clicking it just sets it to Dark.
Duplicate of this bug: 1502071
Going to about:config, adding a new integer field for "ui.systemUsesDarkTheme" with the value 0 allows me to go back to the proper "Light on Dark" theme.
(In reply to ross from comment #52)
> Going to about:config, adding a new integer field for
> "ui.systemUsesDarkTheme" with the value 0 allows me to go back to the proper
> "Light on Dark" theme.

Thank you!! This workaround works great.
(In reply to ross from comment #52)
> Going to about:config, adding a new integer field for
> "ui.systemUsesDarkTheme" with the value 0 allows me to go back to the proper
> "Light on Dark" theme.

Can confirm this workaround also worked for me. Thank you so much for bringing this solution to us.
See Also: → 1503022
Assignee: nobody → dao+bmo
Status: NEW → ASSIGNED
Flags: needinfo?(shorlander)
Flags: needinfo?(philipp)
Pushed by dgottwald@mozilla.com:
https://hg.mozilla.org/integration/autoland/rev/e8a2deef577f
Clarify default theme description. r=mstriemer
https://hg.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/rev/e8a2deef577f
Status: ASSIGNED → RESOLVED
Closed: 10 months ago
Resolution: --- → FIXED
Target Milestone: --- → mozilla66
Summary: "Light on Dark" (Default) theme is no longer selectable when OS default app mode is set to Dark → Clarify deault theme description ("Light on Dark" theme is no longer selectable when OS is in Dark mode)
Summary: Clarify deault theme description ("Light on Dark" theme is no longer selectable when OS is in Dark mode) → Clarify default theme description ("Light on Dark" theme is no longer selectable when OS is in Dark mode)

I will attach what we have now for latest Fx66(the description for Default Theme was changed to "A theme with the operating system color scheme").

Please let me know if this was the final decision before marking the bug as verified.

Flags: needinfo?(dao+bmo)
Attached image Postfix video

(In reply to Victor Carciu from comment #59)

I will attach what we have now for latest Fx66(the description for Default Theme was changed to "A theme with the operating system color scheme").

Please let me know if this was the final decision before marking the bug as verified.

Right.

Flags: needinfo?(dao+bmo)

Thanks.

Marking bug as verified.

Status: RESOLVED → VERIFIED
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