Closed Bug 89350 Opened 21 years ago Closed 20 years ago

Home button should appear on main Toolbar

Categories

(SeaMonkey :: UI Design, enhancement)

enhancement
Not set
normal

Tracking

(Not tracked)

RESOLVED WONTFIX

People

(Reporter: emmet, Assigned: marlon.bishop)

References

Details

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(3 files)

From Bugzilla Helper:
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:0.9.1+)
Gecko/20010627
BuildID:    2001062704

The home button does not appear on the navigation bar
when the personal toolbar is not displayed.

Since the sidebar does everything I want for bookmarks/links
I have no need to sacrifice the vertical screen realestate
to the personal toolbar. However, a home button *is* very
useful.

I see this as a serious bug!

Reproducible: Always
Steps to Reproduce:
You could use Go / Home (shortcut key: Alt+Home).
Or you could bookmark your home page!
>>You could use Go / Home (shortcut key: Alt+Home).

Taking your hand off the mouse to use the keyboard is hardly
good UI design. What's more the key combination is a pain in
the **** to use.

>>Or you could bookmark your home page!

True. However 'Home' should be accessible by a single click and
this isn't neccessarily true if you have scrolled the bookmark
sidebar or are using 'history' etc.

Simply put, 'Home' is a far more useful button than 'Go', why have one and
not the other.

Best, Emmet
again, this is why I'm pushing for the URL bar to be on a separate section like
every previous version of Netscape/IE
Confirming as an RFE to get off unconfirmed radar.
Severity: normal → enhancement
Status: UNCONFIRMED → NEW
Ever confirmed: true
OS: Windows NT → All
Hardware: PC → All
Summary: home button does not appear on navigation bar when personal toolbar not displayed → home button should appear on navigation bar when personal toolbar not displayed
i think this will have to wait for customizable toolbars.
Yes, the Home button should be on the main Toolbar. However, that must wait 
until the main Toolbar and the Address Bar are separated. Marking dependency.
Assignee: mpt → blake
Component: User Interface Design → XP Apps: GUI Features
Depends on: 49543
QA Contact: zach → sairuh
Summary: home button should appear on navigation bar when personal toolbar not displayed → Home button should appear on main Toolbar
*** Bug 93808 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***
QA Contact: sairuh → claudius
Marlon is hashing out toolbar issues.
Assignee: blakeross → marlon
the toolbar is as designed. if you need a home button, reopen your personal
toolbar. this isn't a bug, unless you can provide some incredibly compelling data.  

as a sidenote you will have the capability to add buttons/create your own
toolbars, etc, when toolbar customization is ready.
Marlon, I don't agree with you, particularly for the Classic skin, which
is supposed to emulate the NS 4.X look-and-feel closely and yet, as we all
know, NS 4.X has the Home button on the navigation toolbar. In fact, you'd
have to look long and hard to find a Web browser out there (even from years
ago) that *didn't* have the Home button right next to the
Back/Forward/Reload/Stop buttons. This is the "incredibly compelling data"
that you were looking for :-)

I really don't understand why Mozilla has to put a Navigation button (Home)
on the Personal Toolbar, rather than on the Navigation toolbar. It's a clear
user interface error and really should be fixed. Besides, some of us don't
want the Personal Toolbar (personally, I can't find any use for it at all),
but would like a Home button somewhere. For those lurkers out there, please
vote for this one (I have) - there's only 6 votes for it...
This patch is basically based on the patch from bug 49543, and it adds
a home button on the nav toolbar.  To apply this patch, you also need
to get the button images from attachment 51214 [details] (bug 49543).

The discussions on this bug and bug 49543 are quite inconclusive, so
I'm not sure which bug should depend on which (as far as I can see,
there are at least four bugs involved: 15144, 48926, 49543, and 89350).
Frankly, I don't really care whether the address bar is separated from
the nav bar, or whether the toolbars are customizable.	But personally
I do think a home button on the nav toolbar is really great (especially
since I want to get rid of the personal toolbar because of bug 107926).
But, of course, I'm not a UI expert, so...
We have an ugly "Select the buttons you want to see in the toolbars" prefs
group. Why not add a "Home on main toolbar" checkbox to "Home on Personal
Toolbar" (maybe shorter wording)? Default should be off. There is a very
compelling reason for not having Home there by default: Because the urlbar will
be too short. The current design assumes that there are only 4 or 5 buttons on
the main toolbar.
> There is a very compelling reason for not having Home there 
> by default: Because the urlbar will be too short. The current 
> design assumes that there are only 4 or 5 buttons on the main 
> toolbar.

Yes, but for most end users, Home is _vital_; whereas, Forward
is of minor importance at best (to end users; power users of
course need it) and Reload is incomprehensible and superfluous 
(same caveat).  Then there's Stop, which would be redundant if
the browser behaved correctly in the first place.  Personal 
Toolbar?  There are an astonishing number of users out there 
who can't figure out what it is or how to use it (unless someone 
puts links for Yahoo and Google on it for them, in which case 
it starts to be intuitive), but they know what home means.

Home should be present by default; the option to remove
it is important, however, because once a user starts 
customising the personal toolbar an extra link there is 
better in terms of the space it consumes.

> There is a very compelling reason for not having Home there 
> by default: Because the urlbar will be too short.

I should say that URL bars *should* be short. Nobody I know actually types in 
more than an occasional directory beyond the domain. FAR more URLs are reached 
via links.

The REAL point of all this is how we use our browsers. I personally have a web 
site full of links that I use as my home page(s). It is a very extensive 
structure of links, dictionary forms, search forms, etc. I start every session 
there, and want to be able to single click back to it to begin the next effort.

Now while most people aren't web page designers with their own search/link 
databases, most people do use either a favorite portal, news site or email 
center as their home page because they want to check on it so often. And while 
I don't have proof, I'd be willing to bet most like to check back at it pretty 
often or bounce there to start a fresh "browse", even in the middle of a 
session.

Having not used links/favorites stored within a browser for many years, I only 
find the Personal Toolbar an annoying necessity because there is no other way 
to get Home outside of the amazingly annoying two-handed Alt+Home. As Jonadab 
alluded above, I'd gladly forego the Forward button for a Home one.
Let's see...Internet Explorer 6 has the home button on the toolbar, Netscape 4
has the home button on the toolbar, Opera has the home button on the
toolbar...so what's wrong with this picture? There better be a much reason for
breaking a "rule" in browser design other than "the URL bar will be too short". 

The URL bar is too short because the search button is too big, because the
printer icon is larger than the other button icons, unlike any other browser,
and the throbber is so large. So we sacrifice a "standard" of browser design so
that these three items can hog up sp much space?!  If we want to "fix" the
problem, we can start with those three items.  Then you'll have plenty of room
for the home button. 

I don't know how this design ever got by the UI people in the first place but
it's going to be a huge obstacle to user adaption.
I removed the Go, Print and Search buttons because I don't use them. I'd like
the Home button there because I want to use it often. Would people use Go, Print
and Search more often than Home? Whoever thought of removing the Home button
surely has very poor knowledge of UI design.

Ben, Home does not make the location bar too short because the user will have
the option of choosing which among the Home, Go, S e a r c h, and Print buttons
to have. In my case I will actually have a longer location bar than default
because Home is much shorter than the other three buttons combined.

And by the way, Matthew, you don't need to separate the location bar first just
to add the Home. It is clearly not a dependency. If Aaron wishes a separate
location bar let him advocate it but it should not be a prerequisite for Home
just as it is not a prerequisite for Search, Go, Print and the M.

Provide incredibly compelling data? Marlon, The burden of proof lies on you to
provide incredibly compelling data why the Home button should *not* be on the
toolbar, not on us. Reason: it is Moz that deviated from well-established UI. So
it is Moz that needs to explain, not the other way around.

Why shouldn't we have it even as an option just because one person strongly
believes that it shouldn't be there? Can't it be at least an option for the many
more people who equally strongly believe that it should?
*** Bug 130266 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***
Another good reason for having the home button on the main toolbar is the
introduction of the "Full Screen" mode in Windows. Unless you minimize the
personal toolbar then maximize it after you've hit F11 you loose the Home button.
I am for the Home button in the navigation bar as well.

I remember it's the very first thing that puzzled me when I saw the pre-releases
of Netscape 6.
Marlon, we are not asking for the Home to be moved to the navigation bar, we
just want it to be made an option there, just like Go, Search and Print. The
Home link in the personal toolbar can stay if you want.

Thus I propose the name of the bug be changed to "Home button should be an
option on the main toolbar".

Having said that, it should not be difficult to implement.
This bug is NOT a dependency of 49543 (removable address bar). That's silly!

This bug is dependent only on someone deciding to squeeze the existing four 
(oversized) toolbar buttons together 6px and adding the Home button. Here's a 
15 minute example screenshot: 
  http://www.mindspring.com/~digitect/mozilla.png

I doubt the code and graphics for this fix take more than 4 man hours total. 
I'll be glad to do the graphics if somebody else can do the code and 
convince "management" to implement it.
I totally agree with Comment #20 (Home button should be an option on the main
toolbar)
the patch here misses the changes to the classic theme
Furthermore, browsers used in an intranet environement have their home page set
to the intranet portal where all the work tools are. People spend their time
going to and fro this intranet portal and having this small home link in the
personal toolbar will certainly not help Mozilla/Netscape penetrate the business
world. I can't believe any UI designer with a minimum of common sense can think
that a navigational icon should be put in an optional bookmarks bar. (and yes,
since this is called "personal toolbar" and since it disappears when you go full
screen, this IS an optional bar).

The alt+home "solution" is even more ridiculous. Why don't we suppress all
browsing icons and only use keyboard then ? What if there is no keyboard (kiosk
mode for instance) ?

BTW, I think this bug deserves the 4xp keyword.
I think that a home button should exist.
Not in the personal toolbar, because i don't use it, it takes space  from the
site view.
That home button should be optional, that's the only way to satisfy all the users.
The home URL is not a vulgar location.
A good location where the home button could be displayed, could be, where the
Go, Search and Print buttons are, it would interfere less with the main buttons,
Back, Forward, etc. How hard is to display a Home button next to those buttons?
If you don't like it, you can remove it, just like the other buttons, Go,
Search, etc.
I'm totally in favour of a Home button on the Navigation Bar (at least in my
configuration of Mozilla) - it would make my browsing life easier.  I have two
comments:

1. In comment 12 it's mentioned that a "Home on Main Toolbar" should be added to
"Home on Personal Toolbar" in the "Select the buttons you want to see in the
toolbars" preferences group.  I don't see a "Home on Personal Toolbar" checkbox
- I only see a "Home" checkbox.  (I can't recall seeing the other in earlier
builds either.) The pref UI doesn't distinguish between Personal and Navigation
toolbars.  Changing the checked status of Print and Go adds or removes those
buttons from the Navigation toolbar - but neither Bookmark nor Home have any
affect on the Navigation toolbar.  The opposite is true of the Personal toolbar.
 Both Home and Bookmarks *DO* have an affect, but the other checkboxes do not. 
The UI for this preference is inconsistent.  Some checkboxes affect only the
Personal toolbar, others only the Navigation toolbar.  Yet the wording says
simply "toolbars".  Either the UI for this preference should be changed to
reflect the true effect of changing these check boxes, or the corresponding Home
(this bug) and Bookmark buttons in the Navigation toolbar (and the others in the
Personal toolbar) should be linked into the existing preference UI.

2. I'm not sure why there would be any opposition to having a preference for
having a Home button on the Navigation toolbar.  Surely giving the user the
choice is better than not doing so?  Unless the objection is that "yet another"
preference should not be added.  (Although, see my first comment - the
preference is already "sort of" there in the UI.)  But if the objection is
really about adding another preference this should be stated.  Making the reason
simply the fact that "it's by design" that there's no Home button, or the option
of having one, is not really very reasonable.  There needs to be a better
argument than one that's solely autocratic.
I've opened related bug 935929 to address the confusion over the UI for the
"buttons in toolbar" preference. 
Correction: bug 135929.
Keywords: 4xp
Picture shows how settings can fixed in IE 6 to remove the home button. I
believe the same could be done with Mozilla.
The important thing being that the user has the choice of removing or adding the
Home button as they choose, rather than having its appearance / non-appearance
be hardcoded into the program.

In terms of this bug, the "buttons in toolbar" preference should be linked into
the Navigation toolbar as well as the Personal toolbar.
Hm... it seems we all agree that a Home button is a good thing (OK, some people
will disagree here, and even I think I don't need any Home button at all, but
that it is wanted by most users).

The question merely seems to be _where_ to put it. At first I thought that it
makes perfectly sense to put in on the "personal toolbar" because I expect that
this holds links to webpages, and 'Home' is just a link to a page, although for
most/some the most important page. Then, most people used to other browsers seem
to expect this button directly on the navigation bar, I guess, just because it
had been there forever.

In order to avoid yet another preference*, I think it _could_ make sense to put
a Home button on the navigation bar if the personal toolbar is hidden. If the
personal toolbar is shown, the Home button could be put on that and not be shown
anymore on the navigation bar. The downside of this idea is that switching the
personal toolbar on will irritate people because they will think that Mozilla
just removed their Home button.

What I certainly would not like to have is two Home buttons!
(<personal-opinion> And I prefer to have it in the personal toolbar. But that's
just me. </personal-opinion>)

bye, daniel :)

* = Those people willing to change such stuff and adapt the browser exactly to
what they want, do edit their chrome nevertheless, don't you? ;)
*raises hand* *jumps in the middle of the controversy*

Uh, since this bug doesn't seem to have any target date anyways, why don't we
wait for the toolbar customization work to complete? Won't that automatically
solve the problem?

On a related note, as you can see here <http://www.blakeross.com/images/mb> ,
not every Netscape employee thinks that a Home button belongs to the personal
toolbar (the shot is from the new mozilla/browser project, and made by Blake Ross).
I don't think we want to relocate the button algorithmically, but hopefully,
toolbar customization will be flexible enough to allow users to move these
buttons to any toolbar.  
But when is toolbar customization going to be implemented?  Many people have
said, and are still saying, "wait for toolbar customization".  Well, it's sure
not going to happen for 1.0 (which is sad), so when will it?  There are numerous
patches around for just about every aspect of toolbar customization, but it
seems they end up getting ignored/forgotten or there is just too much bickering
in the bugs themselves to ever become checked in.  For example bug 44943
(Separate Toolbar from Adressbar) has been opened since 8-18-2000 and after
several patches has just drifted off into nothingness, bug 15144 (Customize
Toolbars) has been open since 1999 and has also (since 2000) just kind of been
forgotten, bug 22056 (Toolbars as text/icons/both) had some nice activity and
patches but has been sitting at a stand still since March.  I know Marlon has
put up several comments about a "toolbar customization spec" and hints to this
being worked on, so maybe he, or anybody who knows, can post some sort of update
on it so we can see just where we are at this point.  I know MPT put one up, but
Marlon is the one I constantly see popping up with regards to 'his'
customization spec.  Mozilla is a nice browser indeed, but this would really
give it a kick in the butt and make it much better.  I really like using it, but
will (for now) keep IE or any other browser as my first choice, due to lack of a
more configurable UI.
Sorry, (Separate Toolbar from Adressbar) is bug 49543
Maybe the m/b project with provide an alternative:

http://lxr.mozilla.org/mozilla/source/browser/

http://www.blakeross.com/images/mb.jpg

Unfortunately, most of the interface issues seem to be heading in the wrong
direction. This project might be what the rest of us want but can't seem to get
out of the UI.
Hmmm another really good addition to this RFE would be the ability to set a
group bookmark series (i.e multiple tabbed bookmarks) as the homepage.

So my homepage would consist of for example 5 tabs of hardocp, tweak3d,
theregister, etc.
Eric, that has _nothing to do whatsoever_ with this RFE, which is only about the
placement of the home button!
Please file another bug for your wish, unless there is already one.
Sorry everyone

I meant to post that comment in bug 134647.  Not only that but the comment was
totally rhetorical anyway.. *whoops*  

My apologies..  Cheers!
This will put a home button on the main toolbar.

Go here: <http://home.no.net/trihand/>

Notes from page: * Only works for Modern
                 * Not removeable
That's great!.. and  call me an idiot, but.. how do I make it work ? 

I clicked on the link to home.xpi on your website, and the status bar briefly
flashed a progress bar, and .. then Adid nothing at all.   I tried doing a
shift-click and downloaded the file to disk.. it appears to be a java archive
(jar) file..   tried running the file from my hard drive incase it didn't like
the security issues of running it from your site.. no change.. the browser
appears to open it, and load it, but doesn't change anything. oh, and I was
closing the browser completely each time to no avail.

What am I doing wrong ? I'm running this on build 2002050306.. a bit newer than
1.0rc1 - does your button require a specific version ? (Your screenshot shows it
running on 2002051006.. 7 days newer than mine)

and if mozilla executes/interprets xpi files just by clicking on them.. isn't
that a bit of a security issue if the UI can be manipulated by these things ?
actually... if it's a java archive.. that kinda implies that I need java running
in order to make this work (and I haven't downloaded it because I've never had a
good reason to).

Anyone know if there's a bug where mozilla fails to notify the user when it
tries to execute java and can't find a plugin to do it with.. something like "%d
components could not be displayed on this page as java is disabled / could not
be found" ?


Regarding Tobias Tinkerman's fix (adding a home button):

  http://home.no.net/trihand/

I simply opened the downloaded file from within Mozilla. Worked perfectly.

Thank you, thank you, thank you! Only one more bug to fix before I can actually 
use the lizard (http://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=35268 -- bug 
35268 "Edit Source using External Editor").
Make sure you have the following enabled:

* Javascript
* Software installation

JAR files are archives like ZIP files. You don't need Java installed to
install this feature, AFAIK.
Ahhhh! .. it was the 'software installation' checkbox thanks :)

Although I think it would be nice if mozilla said something rather than just act
dumb and do nothing if software installation is turned off and a webpage
attempts it.
Just wanted to let people know that it's not my fix.  Sorry if I didn't make
that clear.  This was posted on the mozillazine forums a short while ago and I
just wanted the people in this bug to know about it who might not have been
aware.  This is in print at the bottom of the install page:

© 2002 Reidar Djupvik

So, thank's Reidar.
*** Bug 146920 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***
*** Bug 142273 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***
Blocks: 157199
No longer blocks: 157199
I have wasted an afternoon trying to work out how to get a home button on my
navigation bar.  It is an issue for me.  I couldn't get the patch of comment 43
to work - it reported missing files.  If konqueror was as stable as mozilla I
wouldn't bother - it has a home button in the right place.

Returning to life before I start trying to learn how to roll my own chrome...
you just shouldn't have to go to that much trouble for such a basic thing.
*** Bug 158107 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***
What's stopping a patch to get accepted here? Why can't someone (with the
knowledge, not me) just create a simple patch that adds a Home button next to
the Stop button and then someone can review that and check it in?

People are arguing about whether or not to add a pref. Can't that wait until the
button is there? Clearly, *most* end-users and many developers wants this button
in the navigation toolbar, so why not just add the button and discuss whether or
not to add a pref later?

My personal opinion is that we shouldn't bother to add a pref for it because of
several reasons:

1. It's a very important button, almost as important as Stop, Back, etc. If we
need a pref for this button, then we can might as well add prefs for the other
main buttons. Let's not do that!
2. It adds bloat to the software. "Yet another pref."
3. When bug 15144 (customizable toolbars) is fixed, you will be able to remove
the Home button anyway, which will force us to remove the pref again (meaning
more work).

Anyway, the important thing is to add the Home button, not whether or not it
will be removable using a pref.

An-Cheng Huang, you created a patch last year, can you create a new one? Or can
someone use that one and update it? Or write a new one?

Finally, this bug should NOT depend on bug 49543. It doesn't matter if this bug
is fixed first. Actually, it might even speed up the process on bug 49543.
Please don't let another bug stop us from fixing this one, as this will be an
improvement regardless of whether or not the address bar gets a separate toolbar.
the essence of the main navigator bar is in that it has only 4 buttons, which represent 
only navigation functions (well, 5 including printer, imho totally uneccessary) which by 
design,  leave adequate length for url viewing.  You can't expect to add any button to the 
navbar without receiving equal opposition from the URL is too short camp.

i suggest that we try to get out of the mindset of copying and justifying ourselves from a 5-
6 year old piece of software (or, justifying ourselves from others who have copied our 5-6 
year old piece of software).   The home button is clearly no more than a link, which is not 
in the league nav control set.  If home weren't just a hard coded link - for example, if it 
took you back to the first URL you typed for that window - then that would be a different 
kind of home button, one which would perform a 'return to home' operation on your 
navigation sequence, thus deserve a position on a navigation bar (not advocating that, 
just describing an example of what would and wouldn't belong on navbar)

The loss of home when closing personal toolbar, is not something that has proven to be 
a common annoyance with our users (with exception of those in this bug), the truth being 
- not many user customize or closing their personal toolbars.  Some however do, lose 
toolbars by accidentally clicking on the collapse button, but that in my opinion is the 
reason we should loose individual toolbar collapsing, not for placing the home button on 
the navbar.

Toolbar customization is really where this issue should get addressed.
Then mark this bug WONTFIX and let's stop wasting everybody's time. I get tired 
of reading the same ridiculous comments from module owners who I'm convinced 
have no experience with the use of the browser outside of the cube farms at 
Netscape. I've heard about all of the usablity studies supposedly done to 
justify these arguments. Whatever. It's not going to convince those of us who 
would have to support this browser in the real world for real users. But not to 
worry. If Mozilla isn't going to have a home button on the Nav bar, I won't 
have to waste my time trying to convince the powers-that-be why we should make 
it available as an alternative to IE. 
Marlon I hope that you do realize that most people including many developpers
and UI specialists think that the home button IS a basic navigational button. 

The whole concept of navigation means nothing whithout a starting point, ever
wondered why all web sites have a Home button on all their pages ? I guess that
you find it stupid since this page is already in yoiur bookmarks...

As for the mysterious usability studies, could you provide us a URL ? 

I have one for you, please read carefuly the first paragraph, the one titled
"Design Mistake 1: Forgetting the User"

Principles of Good GUI Design
http://www.classicsys.com/classic_site/articles/article_10-95.html
The Home button is absolutely necessary on the Main Toolbar.  However, marlon
does have a point about the address bar camp; they will scream.  By default, the
address bar is pretty short, since it is flanked by the navigation controls, the
Go button, the Print button, and the throbber.  Until bug 49543 is reviewed (I
don't know why it hasn't been, and I'm not sure who to scream to about it
either) and checked in, adding a home button is most likely going to cramp the
main toolbar even moreso than it already is.  While this may be fine for those
of us with large resolutions, it will make the address bar impossibly small on
640x480 and 800x600 screens.

Also, with toolbar customization seemingly happening right now (check Asa &
Hyatt's weblogs for more), I can't help but think that this bug will be fixed
with customization.

In the mean time, if you want to get this bug fixed, let's get bug 49543 taken
care of;  Scream if you have to, find a reviewer to get the working patches
looked at, let Hyatt Super-Review it, and let's get it checked into 1.2A!  Once
that bug is squashed, this one will be easy to work in with no resistance
whatsoever.
> The home button is clearly no more than a link

I disagree completely.

"Home" is just as valid a navigation tool as "Back".  Rather than telling the
browser to go "back one site" you're telling it to go "all the way back home". 
Sure, it can be thought of as a bookmark - but so could "Back" be thought of as
a dynamic bookmark to the last site visited.  But both "Home" and "Back" are
more useful, and in a different class, than are regular bookmarks.  Everybody
has a home.  Only a very few people have the same bookmarks.
> adding a home button is most likely going to cramp the
> main toolbar even moreso than it already is

> it will make the address bar impossibly small

Good!  Then people will be forced to pay the attention to bug 49543 that it
deserves.  The best way of ensuring that that bug is fixed as quickly as
possible is to get a patch for THIS bug checked in.
> The best way of ensuring that that bug is fixed as quickly as possible is to
get > a patch for THIS bug checked in.

While I see where your logic is headed, I don't think this bug fix will get
approval while the address bar is not separated from the navigation.  I think
the best way to handle it is to get them fixed jointly, actually.  This way the
builds don't become less usable while we wait for check-in of one of the two bugs.

In the mean time, I will try to get a working patch up here for the home button,
or at least try to update the existing patch.
http://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=49543 is owned by nobody which 
means it doesn't have anyone responsible for sheparding it through the review 
process. That means it is highly unlikely that it will get reviewed or fixed. 
Plus, Marlon has already stated he thinks both of these issues should be 
addressed in toolbar customization. He owns this bug so you can make arguments 
against that position until you are blue in the face and it isn't going to make 
any difference here. If toolbar customization is the solution, this bug makes 
no more sense than opening bugs for "Back button should appear on main 
Toolbar", "Refresh button should appear on main Toolbar", etc. Toolbar 
customization should address all of those together. That being said, this bug 
is redundant and should be marked WONTFIX.
>Comment #54 From pascal.chevrel@free.fr
>
>The whole concept of navigation means nothing whithout a starting point, ever
>wondered why all web sites have a Home button on all their pages ? I guess that
>you find it stupid since this page is already in yoiur bookmarks...

what i am rying to explain is that our home button _isn't_ navigational by any means 
whatsoever.  in contrast to your example,  our home button implementation does not take 
you back to any point of reference, it doesn't have any more significance than getting you 
back to the same web page over and over no matter where you are.  This is _not_ the 
same behaviour as home on websites -> which take you back to the start page of a the 
site you are currently navigating, a point of reference.

if you'll note my suggestion from above that if home were navigational, by providing a 
means to return to the first URL or the previous home domain of the current URL, then it 
would indeed be navigational.  Perhaps, if the entire world were Netscape.com, or 
Mozilla.org, then yes, the home button _happens_ to be a navigational aid by default.  
but that would be very odd and unfortunate for the world wide web
All the people who use the home button have set for it a special page which is
the center of their activities. That's why you can set it in the preferences and
that's why you can set it by dragging an URL on the home button. Personnally, my
home page is a little page lmade with Composer where I have all the links I need
to work. When I was working for Alcatel a few years ago, all the 150,000
employees had their home page set to their respective department intranet where
they could have access to the tools and info they needed for their job, most of
the users I know have set their home page to their ISP portal or some MyYahoo,
MyNetscape, MyWhatever page that they have customized to suit their needs. The
fact that _you_ don't use the home page does not mean that _others_ don't use it
as a central point.
> our home button implementation does not take you
> back to any point of reference

I don't understand this comment at all.  That's the very *point* of having a
home page.  It's a central point of navigation - the one from which you always
start your browser sessions, and the place from which all of your activities
originate.

> if the entire world were Netscape.com, or Mozilla.org, then yes,
> the home button _happens_ to be a navigational aid by default.

For the user who's defined a Home page - that's exactly what it does.  It's
their "entire world" and "a navigation aid by default".

Frankly, I'm astonished that the whole concept is being misunderstood.  I'd
thought that the argument was based on something else - not on completely
missing the point of what a Home page accomplishes...
Marlon, I can't believe that I hear this from you, the bug owner. If you don't
want this bug to be fixed, why on earth are you the owner of it?

You say that the current toolbar consist of four /navigation/ buttons and that
Home is not a navigation button. Although this is true in a way, from a user's
point of view this is totally wrong. The user wants this button because they use
it all the time. Mozilla is the only web browser I know of that doesn't have the
Home button in the main toolbar. IE (all versions) has it, Opera has it, hey
even Netscape 4.x had it! Don't you think there's a reason why so many users
complain about the lack of the Home button in Mozilla? Have you visited the
newsgroups lately? It feels like I read about the lack of the Home button all
the time. Also, the noise from most developers in this bug report speak the same
clear language.

What you are virtually saying is that even if I or someone else created a fully
working patch that added the Home button (that this bug is all about), you
wouldn't accept it because you still don't think it should be there because it's
not a /navigation/ button? With your logic, "Exit" should not be in the File
menu, because it has nothing to do with file operations. You should really read
the article mentioned in comment 54 (Forgetting The User). In fact, every
developer should read it.

Some people also say that bug 49543 should be fixed first, but it doesn't even
have an owner. Should we wait until "nobody" fixes "another" bug before we fix
this one? I strongly disagree. Yes, the address bar will get even smaller, but
it's not like bug 49543 will not be fixed. It may even get fixed sooner because
of the noise that *may* occur because of the smaller address field. This seems
to be the common way of thinking. "We can't fix /this/ because /that/ is not
fixed." Yes we can! We fix /this/, then /that/ will really need to be fixed too,
which speeds up the process.

Comment 59 from amutch@tln.lib.mi.us:
> If toolbar customization is the solution, this bug makes
> no more sense than opening bugs for "Back button should
> appear on main Toolbar", "Refresh button should appear on
> main Toolbar", etc. Toolbar customization should address
> all of those together. That being said, this bug is redundant
> and should be marked WONTFIX.

NO! I can't believe you say this. The lack of the Home button is a critical
usability problem in Mozilla. We can't wait for such a huge project as
customizable toolbars to fix this immediate problem.

Comment 58 From Mike Palumbo:
> I think the best way to handle it is to get them fixed jointly,
> actually.  This way the builds don't become less usable while we
> wait for check-in of one of the two bugs.

I disagree. Getting them (this and bug 49543) fixed jointly will just take even
more time. We really need one of these bugs to be fixed first in order to fix
the other. Currently, this bug has an owner, bug 49543 hasn't, which makes it
natural to fix this one first.

> In the mean time, I will try to get a working patch up here for
> the home button, or at least try to update the existing patch.

Now that's what I wanted to hear!

Marlon, the final words goes to you. This bug should not be about whether or not
the button should be added or whether or not it's a navigational button. It's
about one of the biggest usability problems in Mozilla and it needs to be fixed.
Sometimes, GUI isn't completely logical, and that's because the users are not
completely logical either. Please don't reject a working patch if a developer
contributes with one just because another bug is not fixed or because you don't
like the Home button in the first place. People (that is, users /and/
developers) want this bug fixed now, even though customizable toolbars may be
implemented in the future. Just look at the vote count.

For anyone who's capable of writing a patch for this bug, I wish you the best of
luck!
I have to reiterate what Jason is saying in Comment #62
above. If you do not use your Home page as a navigational
start page, this bug appears to be quite unimportant. But
for intranets the world around (as well as those of us who
use web pages to store our bookmarks) this is an
astonishingly huge oversight/bug in the current Mozilla.

This thread (not that Bugzilla should be that!) has well
established:
1. The home navigation button existed in Netscape 4.0.
2. A home navigation button exists in all other major
   browsers.
3. A home button could graphically be incorporated in the
   same space as the current four buttons.
4. The length of the URL bar is really no consequence to the
   issue.
5. The print and search buttons are far less important than
   a Home Button and yet occupy the same realestate.
6. Support for leaving the Home button off as a UI issue in
   Mozilla is undocumented (and appears to be politically
   motivated).
7. The presence of a Home link in the Personal Toolbar does
   not address the problem being posed by the bug.
8. Patches to fix the problem are quite simple.
9. There is obviously no one with any ability to change the
   situation who appears to advocate the position.

As someone has already said, the ability to advocate the use
of Mozilla (not just gecko) in commercial situations is
severely hampered by this bug. I am truly surprised that it
is not made at least an option given the amount of support
for it expressed above.


Steve Hall  [ digitect@mindspring.com ]

Give it up people, the Mozilla developers just don't care.  Plain and simple.  
If they did, this bug wouldn't still be open for more than a year.  Shouting 
and yelling is just futile.  If they really cared about actually fixing this 
bug, it would have been fixed a LONG time ago.  Save yourselves some trouble 
and forget about this, it wont get fixed anyway....
i don't think how you or i personally prefer to use the home button should influence the 
design of shipping products.  that's the antithesis of design.  What is fact is that the home 
button in it's current incarnation is just a link, and not a reference point for navigation.   it 
may work accidentally for some percentage of time when surfing corporate intranets or in 
other situations like you mentioned, but those should be cases that toolbar customization 
and the IS dept handles by configuring things right.

if there were some alternate universe where the home button didn't mean what it means 
today, we might be able to consider a feature which users can bonk on to take them back 
to the original URL, or to the first page visited in the current domain. As it stands today, 
home *might* be your most important or frequently visited link of all - or, it might not - 
many may not ever use it or redefine it at all (the latter being true for most of our users).  
So the second question is why should it use up nav toolbar space for everybody? 

It is simply not crucial to the immediate task of navigating a site, to the same degree that 
back, forward, stop and reload are.
Marlon: If you truly believe this then take responsibility for the issue, and
step up to the plate and mark this bug as WONTFIX as a declaration of
mozilla.org's intentions.  Otherwise, you're just expressing your *personal*
opinion and what you're saying really has no influence on the vast majority of
people here who don't share your viewpoint.
Exactly. No one should misinterpret my comments as saying that the absence of 
the Home button isn't a huge UI mistake. It is one and it is probably the most 
glaring and noticed of many. I wouldn't have voted for this bug if I thought 
otherwise. But the way the process works, Marlon alone has say-so over whether 
this feature will be incorporated in Mozilla. As he has made it quite clear 
that he thinks this feature is superfluous and better implemented through 
toolbar customization, any efforts to create a patch, seek reviews, etc. are 
going to end in frustration because Marlon has no intention of allowing this 
to move forward. Instead of pointlessly responding to various comments from 
various people, Marlon should mark the bug WONTFIX so that all of us can move 
onto other bugs which might address the problem from another angle. That 
doesn't mean that the problem shouldn't be addressed, it should. But why keep 
running your collective heads into the brick wall present here?
>Additional Comment #63 From David Tenser
>
>NO! I can't believe you say this. The lack of the Home button is a critical
>usability problem in Mozilla. We can't wait for such a huge project as
>customizable toolbars to fix this immediate problem.

 i do seem to have a home button. it's the first button in the personal toolbar.   i haven't 
seen any usability problems with that.  

>Additional Comments From jasonb@dante.com
>Marlon: If you truly believe this then take responsibility for the issue, and
>step up to the plate and mark this bug as WONTFIX as a declaration of
>mozilla.org's intentions. 

ok.

>Otherwise, you're just expressing your *personal*
>opinion and what you're saying really has no influence on the vast majority of
>people here who don't share your viewpoint.

I really don't see it as my 'personal opinion', more than it is simply an expression of logic: 
the home button is a personal favorite link. it is not a reference point to navigation (even if 
that is the value that engineers - ours, or anyone's who's copied ours - have attributed to 
it)  i haven't seen much to counter that logic, other than, "my grandmother usually does 
this or that..."  

with the exception of: 

>With your logic, "Exit" should not be in the File menu, because it has nothing to do with 
>file operations. You should really read the article mentioned in comment 54 (Forgetting 
>The User). In fact, every developer should read it.

which is a good argument, and the article, though no substitute for the practice of user 
interface design, is a fine article purely from a 'do's and dont's' article standpoint.  
however, commercial airline pilots don't get you from point a to point b by reading the 
owner's manual along the way. The mere mention of  an article, though valid it may be on 
it's own, does not directly offer any useful counterpoint to the argument in this bug.  
Unless you'd care to draw out some reference which you feel you can prove runs parallel 
or would add some credence, perhaps combined with human reasoning, to illustrate a  
specific point you're making, then it stands that we should all observe that the article in 
comment #54 is simply a good read for those casually interested in software design.   

i'Il admit in general the rule "Forgetting the User" does apply to most everything, but i 
would add that in your example the file menu can accept any number of features by 
nature of being a menu, and that toolbars, by their nature, should only accept the very 
most important subset to the task that they're required for. 

Status: NEW → RESOLVED
Closed: 20 years ago
Resolution: --- → WONTFIX
Marlon, can you confirm that Mozilla.org position is that there is no point for
a Home button since this is just an ordinary link ? If it is, it would be
logical now to suppress the possibility to set a home page in the preferences
since the home button is now officially an ordinary bookmark you can define from
the bookmark manager.
this bug is closed, please take your trolls and flames to the newsgroups where
they belong.  (for some obnoxious reason, though i removed myself from the cc
list early today because i got sick of the bitching, i'm still receiving all
your spam.)
I'm sorry, but this is absolutely pathetic.  I will take this to the newsgroups,
but Marlon, you should be ashamed at hindering Mozilla's acceptance, progress,
and UI.  

This is EXACTLY why so many people fork the Gecko engine and come up with their
own UI.  Every other browser, including every other *Netscape* browser, had home
in the main toolbar.  So does Chimera, Opera, IE, iCab, Galeon, K-Meleon,
Konqueror, etc.  Mozilla is the only one I can think of that doesn't.   The home
button does not belong in the Personal Toolbar, it belongs on the main toolbar.
 And even if you could prove that it doesn't belong there, you will never gain
acceptance since it is set in everyone's mind where the Home button should be...
For a bug with a similar problem of "misterious usability tests" =) , check
bug 137901 .
I used a build with URLbar customization - the home button could be put to the
main toolbar.

Just wait till the feature will be included in Mozilla's nightly builds.
*** Bug 164515 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***
*** Bug 165092 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***
Interesting discussion in bug 164868 about the buttons in the navigation
toolbar. Marlon, are you still so sure about the navigation-only buttons in the
"Navigation Toolbar"?
I am appalled.
38 votes, 77 comments.
Wontfix because I don't want to.
Bug 137901 shows the beginning echos of this gross ignorance of user preference.
My humble apologies for the spam.
If so many users want it we need to reopen this bug?
> Interesting discussion in bug 164868 about the buttons in the navigation
> toolbar.

Also see bug 164908 (another logical conclusion of this bug's resolution) as
well as bug 170067 (I'm tired of this inconsistency - I want one consistent,
defendable, position in place and for everybody to stick to it - no matter what
it is).
*** Bug 176912 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***
*** Bug 181522 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***
Actually the Home Button SHOULD be in the _Navigation Toolbar_ instead of the
_Personal Toolbar_!

The guy who is responsible for that mess wrote: "...it is not a reference point
to navigation."

Incredible nonsense! OF COURSE it is "a" reference point to navigation. In fact
it is THE reference point for me when "accessing the internet". (And I am quite
sure the same is true for MANY others. Actually, many commentators have already
try to point that out!)

To rate it just "WONTFIX" is a incredible ignorance of USER WISHES and NEEDS!

So this affair will definitely diminish my enthusiasm for the whole Mozilla
project. I fear you have lost "another one".

The blunt ignorance of JUSTIFIED USER WISHES (clearly expressed in MANY
comments) really does harm to the whole project imho.
Actually, marking this WONTFIX is probably the best thing that could have 
happened. Instead of wasting time running heads into brick walls, two things 
happened:

1) A user developed a way to add the home button to the main toolbar

2) Phoenix, a stripped down version of Mozilla, included the home button on the 
toolbar

So, there are Mozilla-based alternatives that address this concern. I believe 
that due to these steps, in the long run, the home button will be added to the 
main toolbar in Mozilla. Sometimes you lose the battles but win the war. 
OK, the only (good) point I've seen argued against this is that the "Home"
button is not a reference point of navigation. Assuming that you want every
reference point of navigation on the Navigation toolbar, doesn't the Home button
refer the user to an point of navigation, namely the very beginning? Unlike
personal favorite links, this is actually of importance. Doesn't the very
beginning qualify as being important? Not only that, but using the Personal
Toolbar actually takes up more space that the "Home" button for those who don't
use the Personal Toolbar, or use the Sidebar instead. Also, if so many people
want this:

1. Why are you letting so little people getting in the way of actually
implementing this? This is really a popular topic. The People Have The Power!
2. Why are there only 39 votes? Surely there's got to be more people who support
this.
3. Doesn't anyone have the power to open this bug again?
4. Would it hurt you just to put a simple "Home" button on the Navigation
toolbar even though you are firmly (and wrongly in my opinion) against this?

As for waiting for customizable toolbars, this is an perfect example of
procrastination. Why don't all you people against this wait for customizable
toolbars so you can remove the "Home" button and let all the people for this
actually implement this? So there.
* Customizable toolbars already exist in Phoenix 0.4 (as well as many Gecko-
based browsers like K-Meleon and Galeon).

http://mozilla.org/projects/phoenix/phoenix-release-notes.html#install

* The home button already exists in Phoenix 0.4.

* You can add a home button to Mozilla here:

http://home.no.net/trihand/mozilla/home/en/

Unless someone from the top of Mozilla dictates that this bug be reopened, it's 
not going to be reopened. Having said that, I'm am convinced that it is just a 
matter of time before the "home" button has a place on the Navigation bar. 
Marlon's decision on this was wrong but there are alternatives. Make use of 
them as that sends a louder message than anything anyone posting here will make.

"Unless someone from the top of Mozilla dictates that this bug be reopened, it's 
not going to be reopened. Having said that, I'm am convinced that it is just a 
matter of time before the "home" button has a place on the Navigation bar. 
Marlon's decision on this was wrong but there are alternatives. (...)"

Well, actually this just underlines the words of a Phoenix developer:

"We also believe Mozilla, in general, is going in the wrong direction in terms
of bloat and UI, and see no reason for our releases to carry those connotations."

--------------

I mean the SOLUTION would be THAT easy:

The preferences would just have to contain TWO separated fields:

Select the buttons you want to see

- in the Navigation Toolbar
[ ] Home
[ ] Go
[ ] Search
[ ] Print

- in the Personal Toolbar
[ ] Home
[ ] Bookmarks

Instead of ONLY "Select the buttons you want to see in the toolbars" with:
[ ] Bookmarks   [ ] Search
[ ] Go   [ ] Print
[ ] Home 

...actually this is just a big MESS, as you can see. ("Go" is placed on the
Navigation Toolbar, while "Home" is placed on the Personal Toolbar. ?!? Actually
the 'logic' behind the UI here in no way is "transparent".)

---------------------------------

(o) Reopen bug
"...the SOLUTION would be THAT easy [...]"

I mean, this solution would not depend on the (final clarification of the
probably rather "philosophical") question if "Home" is a "reference point" of
navigation or not, etc. etc.

It would just OFFER _the u s e r_ the possibility to have the Home-Button in the
toolbar HE thinks is right. (And imho the user should not have to wait for
"Toolbar-Customization" for that "feature".)

Marlon certainly will choose the following settings:

Select the buttons you want to see

   in the Navigation Toolbar:

   [ ] Home
   [ ] Go
   [ ] Search
   [ ] Print

   in the Personal Toolbar:

   [x] Home
   [ ] Bookmarks

while the default, clearly should be:

Select the buttons you want to see

   in the Navigation Toolbar:

   [x] Home
   [ ] Go
   [ ] Search
   [ ] Print

   in the Personal Toolbar:

   [ ] Home
   [ ] Bookmarks

At least imho this is what MOST people would appreciate (IF they have the choice).

Well... look, Marlon..., if you click at the menu "Go" you will see that there
are the commands: "Back Forward Home | ..." Obviously "Home" is of a certain
importance for the "surfing experience".

But please offer the user the possibility to _decide_. Thanx.

   (The effort to implement that feature, obviously would be quite
    minimal, but the effect rather notable.)

---------------------------------

(o) Reopen bug
Opened: 2001-07-05 01:00 ...and it's still not back!

Is this project just driven by idiots, or what?!!
Flames like that won't get anything happening. 

However, the sad truth seems to be that the guy this 'bug' is assigned to
doesn't believe it is either a bug, or a necessary feature, and has said that a
home button has no place on the navigation bar at all, so he has marked this bug
as WONTFIX accordingly.

Despite a number of people disagreeing with him, I don't think he's going to
change his opinion on this.

Whatever you believe, the fact remains that you can always work around this
'bug' yourself by installing home.xpi (and reinstalling it every time you
reinstall mozilla freshly)
Since this apparently is not going to get "fixed", here's a workaround which
turns the Mozilla button (AKA the "throbber")(or the Netscape button, if you’re
using NS 7.02) on your navigation toolbar into the equivalent of a “Home” button
by adding a line to the prefs.js file that includes your home page URL (the
following shows my "My Netscape" home page URL): 

user_pref("browser.throbber.url","http://my.netscape.com/index2.psp"); 

Then bookmark Mozilla.org to get there rather than using the Mozilla button. 
Works fine, doesn't add anything new to the toolbar, doesn't take up any
additional space, and has no programming baggage attached as some other "Home
Button" programs do.

Try it, you'll like it!
just in case someone is interested, here's an alternative patch which removes
home from personal toolbar and inserts it in the main toolbar, still respecting
the preference in edit/preferences/navigator whether to show it.
Being that this is commonly implemented in Phoenix, and in light of the recent
reorganization of Mozilla around Phoenix, does this mean that the bug is (a)
FIXED, or (b) REOPENED?

-bZj
hahaha good call ! 
*** Bug 203702 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***
Please reopen this bug. There is no good reason not give an option to put it on
there. Even if you don't like it, you could disable it and put it on the
personal toolbar. There is plenty of room on the navigation toolbar for a home
button - most URL's I go to don't take up half the URL bar and it's not like you
can't scroll to it. I think keeping this WONTFIX is a blantant disregard for the
wishes of the users (remember, Mozilla is a USER agent), and this is a terrible
mistake for the user interface. There are too many people who want this on there
to ignore this.

So please, just reconsider this.
As per comment 93, I believe this bug was closed because Mozilla Firebird was
slotted to replace the current Application Suite (seamonkey?) in the near future
(as per the roadmap change of April 2, 2003).

In light of the recent change in policy, with the assurance of the continued
existance of the Mozilla application suite (see Mozillazine.org article from
January 16, 2004), perhaps this bug should be reopened.

Other things to consider:
1. Every other major browser currently in use still has the ability to have a
home button, including Firebird, IE, Apple Safari, and Konqueror.
2. It can be made to be deactivated via Edit -> Preferences -> Navigator, just
like the Bookmarks, Search button, etc, for people that don't want to lose
screen real estate.
3. The icons are already created for Classic and Modern themes.
4. In addition to just sending the browser to the home URL, it can be used to
set the home URL via drag-n-drop (just like the home icon in the personal toolbar).
Karthik wrote "I believe this bug was closed because Mozilla Firebird was
slotted to replace the current Application Suite".

No - this bug was marked WONTFIX some 8 months before comment 93, and the
reasons had nothing to do with Firebird.
It was marked as WONTFIX because:

1) The module owner did not see the need for it.
2) Mozilla's management team didn't require it.
3) There are numerous alternatives to get around this roadblock within Mozilla 
by using user supplied patches to add the home button to Mozilla. 
4) There are Mozilla-derived browsers that have the home button on the toolbar 
by default.

In short, almost everyone on this bug knows that the #1 is wrong. But that 
doesn't change the fact that #1 is the only controlling point unless #2 states 
otherwise. So constantly spamming this bug with "this is stupid, add the home 
button" is pointless and counterproductive. We already know it's a stupid 
decision. Put your energy to something more productive like encouraging people 
to use Firebird, K-Meleon, Galeon, etc. or point them to the patches that will 
add the home button back to Mozilla. 
*** Bug 247175 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***
Product: Core → Mozilla Application Suite
See also Bug 404109
Component: XP Apps: GUI Features → UI Design
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