527467 - Implement [Shift]+F5/F9 for "Get [All] Messages" ("Download messages", instead of Ctrl+T keyboard shortcut now needed for "New Tab", bug 458069)

Status: RESOLVED FIXED

(Thunderbird :: Toolbars and Tabs, defect)

Description

[Thomas D. (:thomas8)]

- We definitely need Bryan's Bug 458069: Ctrl+T should open a new tab.
- Then we also need another key combo to "Get [All] Messages" (which currently uses Ctrl+[Shift]+T).
- I propose Ctrl+[Shift]+D as they are still unused and easy to remember ("_D_ownload messages").

STR

- Now that we have tabs like FF, press Ctrl+T expecting to open a new tab

Actual
- Ctrl+T will get/download new messages for currently selected account
- Ctrl+Shift+T will get/download new messages for all accounts
- Ctrl+[Shift]+D keyboard shortcuts are unused (even in composition)

Expected
- Ctrl+T should open a new tab, like in FF (as per bug 458069)
- Ctrl+D should download messages for current account
- Ctrl+Shift+D should download messages for all accounts

Comment 1

[Thomas D. (:thomas8)]

Ctrl+D is also doable with one hand, which will be handy.
Also please note that we still have existing F5 keyboard shortcut for getting messages for current account.

Comment 2

[Richard Marti (:Paenglab)]

(In reply to comment #0)
> - Ctrl+[Shift]+D keyboard shortcuts are unused (even in composition)

If Lightning is installed Ctrl+D is used for New Task.

Comment 3

[Philipp Kewisch [:Fallen][📱📆]]

In case Ctrl+D is agreed on, I'd appreciate if you could also look for a new keyboard shortcut for New Tasks for Lightning. Thanks

Comment 4

[Richard Marti (:Paenglab)]

(In reply to comment #3)
> In case Ctrl+D is agreed on, I'd appreciate if you could also look for a new
> keyboard shortcut for New Tasks for Lightning. Thanks

Maybe this can be synchronized with Bug 514512

Comment 5

[KevB]

TB 3.1b1:
Ctrl+Shift+T currently opens the Themes dialog box(!)
Ctrl+Shift+D opens the Tasks pane if you (force) install Lighting, as implied above. Ctrl+D has no effect - Task pane open or otherwise.

I have many accounts setup in TB and never use Ctrl+T. 
I use Ctrl+Shift+T so much I have a reprogrammed a mouse key! :-)

Comment 6

[Bryan Clark (DevTools PM) [:clarkbw]]

Thomas, if you could work out the new tasks shortcut for lightning I could write this patch up pretty quickly one of these nights.

The Ctrl+D scheme sounds reasonable and I would like to reserve the Ctrl+T for future cool new thunderbird tab implementations.  Thanks!

Comment 7

[Jonathan Protzenko [:protz]]

Andrew, Mark, I don't really know who implemented the tab restore feature, but now Ctrl-Shift-T (Get all new messages) conflicts with Undo Close Tab. The menu item still indicates Ctrl-Shift-T which leads me to believe we need to fix this bug. Is everyone ok with Ctrl-D and Ctrl-Shift-D? (Plus, it sounds like "Download").

Comment 8

[Andrew Sutherland [:asuth] (he/him)]

Yes, we need to address this, but it sounds like we still need to figure out either a new keybinding for lightning, or a different keybinding that does not displace lightning's keybinding.  This is where test-pilot data would come in super useful, especially since it sounds like the Lightning keybinding we would be clobbering seems even more likely to be used than the download all messages key...

Comment 9

[Philipp Kewisch [:Fallen][📱📆]]

(In reply to comment #7)

> bug. Is everyone ok with Ctrl-D and Ctrl-Shift-D? (Plus, it sounds like
> "Download").
Not really. This would mean, yet again, that Lightning needs a new shortcut for opening the tasks tab. We already needed to move to a letter that doesn't mean much for Tasks, we could excuse this with "c and d are close to each other".

I guess if you have an idea what Lightning should do then we can talk about it, but I'd really like to keep it the way it is.

Comment 10

[Thomas D. (:thomas8)]

Tricky! In TB, *Both* Ctrl+D and Ctrl+Shift+D are currently taken by Lightning:

Ctrl+D: New Task (shows the dialogue to create a new task)
Ctrl+Shift+D: Show Tasks Tab (opens and/or switches to the tasks list tab)

So if Thunderbird wants to take these back, we are actually looking for *two* new Shortcuts for Lightning (pls correct me if wrong).
Seamonkey has already taken Ctrl+D for "Get new messages", therefore we have
Bug 514512 (still unresolved)- Command key conflict between "New Task" and "Get New Messages" (both Accel+D).

However, let's roll this out from the starting point again for better analysis:

1a) Thunderbird definitely needs to remap the following shortcuts:
Ctrl+T -> remap to: New Thunderbird Tab (bug 458069)
(currently for "Get new messages for current account")

Ctrl+Shift+T -> remap to: Restore last closed tab
(currently for "Get new messages for all accounts")
 
1b) IMO, there is absolutely no way we can avoid using exactly those keyboard shortcuts, as they provide essential functions that the user will expect on those keys from any tabbed browser-style interface, due to his previous browsing experience / use patterns (e.g. FF or IE).

2) Thus, TB can no longer use those keys for "Get [all] new messages".

TB basically has 2 options for the remapping:

3a) Just remap Ctrl+[Shift]+T to the new tab functions,
without assigning new letter keyboard shortcuts to "Get [all] new messages".
Provide only *Function key* shortcuts for those commands: 
F5 (on Windows) / F9 (on Linux/Mac): Get New Messages for *Current* Account
(we already have these up and running)
Shift+F5 / Shift+F9: Get New Messages for *all* Accounts
(we could implement these: any reasons against that?)

3b) Remap Ctrl+[Shift]+T to the new tab functions,
and find 2 new *letter Shortcuts* for Thunderbird's "Get [all] new messages".
Plus, if we take them from Lightning, we have to find 2 new (letter or function key) keyboard shortcuts for Lightning's functions as well, assuming we do not want to actually *steal* them from Lightning without compensation.

In the scenario of 3b, Ctrl+[Shift]+D make sense for TB, as they imply "Download [all] new messages" (therefore, Seamonkey already has Ctrl+D). Back to square one of this comment, as these are currently taken by Lightning's Task Management (New Task / Task List Tab), so we would need to give them 2 new keyboard shortcuts for that:

For all of the following, pls correct me if I'm wrong (see http://support.mozillamessaging.com/en-US/kb/Keyboard+shortcuts)
- All 2-key combinations (Ctrl+alphabetical-character key) seem to be taken by Thunderbird (and very few by Lightning), except Ctrl+B (used for Seamonkey's bookmark manager, in the browser, and Ctrl+Shift+B used for TB's address book).
- if true, this would make it impossible for the two new shortcuts for lightning to use the same letter (with and without shift); thus we would have to assign, for lightning's 2 task management functions,
- either two independent 3-key shortcuts (with shift)
- or a function key (with&without shift)
- or?

Conclusion

4a) If anyone has a viable solution for 3b, please come forward (find 2 new, ideally related shortcuts for lightning's 2 task management functions)

4b) Otherwise, IMHO, 3a seems like a viable alternative: let's educate TB users to use [Shift]F5/F9 for "Get [all] new messages". Any reasons against that?
(for added complication, add Seamonkey into the equation; but maybe Seamonkey could go for 3a, too, which would also solve Seamonkey's bug 514512).

5) Unfortunately, I am not aware of a list of Lightning's keyboard shortcuts, which would be very helpful in situations like these, and for Lighting's users in general.

Comment 11

[Andrew Sutherland [:asuth] (he/him)]

Thanks very much for the investigation, Thomas!

I agree with 4b/3a.  clarkbw?

Comment 12

[Bryan Clark (DevTools PM) [:clarkbw]]

(In reply to comment #11)
> Thanks very much for the investigation, Thomas!
> 
> I agree with 4b/3a.  clarkbw?

Yeah, I think that's a really good way forward.  Thanks!

Comment 13

[Thomas Schmid]

(In reply to comment #11)
> I agree with 4b/3a.  clarkbw?

As I hijacked the Control-Shift-T shortcut by accident in Bug 504122. I would try to fix this bug as described in 4b within the next days.

Comment 14

[Wayne Mery (:wsmwk)]

My hesitation is about ergonomics. Unfortunately, on laptops Fn keys are typically small, and on big keyboards Fn keys are relatively far from the main area of finger activity. Questions:

a) Is getting new mail an infrequent enough activity for the average user (or it should be, i.e. they should not be using it so much) that Fn is not a burden?

b) Do the commands relegated to Fn keys (f6, f7, f8) provide any insight? (do many people use them?  frequently/infrequently?  are starting questions)

OTOH, freeing up ctrl+ by using Fn keys, especially ones that already do the function, is elegant.  

Reminder, we have other keyboard issues (the first of which is a major issue):
* Bug 564328 - Keyboard shortcut Ctrl+F conflict
* https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/buglist.cgi?query_format=advanced&short_desc=ctrl%2B%20ctrl-%20shift-%20shift%2B&bug_severity=enhancement&short_desc_type=anywordssubstr&type0-0-0=nowords&value0-0-0=count%20counts&resolution=---&product=MailNews%20Core&product=Thunderbird

Comment 15

[Wayne Mery (:wsmwk)]

I tested the waters with a few people, with hopefully unbiased questions, and the results so far are that changing keys would have no impact:

* the person who does training for our xxx hundred users says "our clients never use key combos ... everyone clicks..."

* the main mail geek "I have it checking every minute or so, or I click the button to fetch new mail.  I rarely use ctrl-T."

myself, I would be in the camp of "setting it to check every minute", but have backed it off because of the bad interaction of that setting and saving drafts. I do however use ctr+T a lot in part because I have newsgroups set to not auto check for new articles.

Comment 17

[Ludovic Hirlimann [:Usul]]

Requesting blocking because now this bug is a regression from 3.1.

Comment 18

[Mark Banner (:standard8)]

Blocking as we need to fix the regression.

Comment 19

[Jim Porter (:squib)]

Taking this. Should be easy enough.

Comment 20

[Jim Porter (:squib)]

Attachment: Change the hotkey to Ctrl+[Shift]+D

Well, this is a pretty simple patch. Is there anything else to this?

Comment 21

[Ludovic Hirlimann [:Usul]]

Comment on attachment 528524 [details] [diff] [review]
Change the hotkey to Ctrl+[Shift]+D

Switching review to bienvenu cause bwinton's review backlog is big.

Comment 22

[David :Bienvenu]

Comment on attachment 528524 [details] [diff] [review]
Change the hotkey to Ctrl+[Shift]+D

might want to relnote this

Comment 23

[Jim Porter (:squib)]

Checked in: http://hg.mozilla.org/comm-central/rev/113b2520347b

Comment 24

[Steffen Wilberg]

You should change the entity names as well so that localizers notice this change.

Comment 25

[Jim Porter (:squib)]

Is that actually necessary? I think this only matters to the en-US locale; other locales will pick this up when they see that the "undo close tab" shortcut has been added. My understanding is that each locale picks its own keyboard shortcuts, so they'd simply have to decide what to do when they localize the "undo close tab" shortcut.

Comment 26

[Steffen Wilberg]

- Commandkeys (Ctrl + key) are often the same across locales.
- getNewMsgCmd.key is "t" for 74 out of 76 locales:
http://mxr.mozilla.org/l10n-central/search?string=getNewMsgCmd.key
- Don't expect localizers to notice the conflicting keyboard shortcut, especially since Ctrl+Shift+T does nothing unless you have closed tabs to reopen.
- It's common practice and expected by localizers.
- Better safe than sorry.

Comment 27

[Thomas D. (:thomas8)]

Interesting.

Andrew, comment 11: Let's do 4b/3a (as described in comment 10)
Bryan, comment 12: Let's do 4b/3a
Thomas Schmidt, comment 13: Let's do 4b/3a

4b/3a = [Shift+]F5/F9 *only* for getting [all] messages, so as to keep Ctrl+[Shift]+D for Lightning's task functions.

The actual patch (comment 20): Ctrl+[Shift]+D for getting [all] messages.

I'm not against Ctrl+[Shift]+D, but it creates an unsolved problem for two of Lightning's core functions (new task / switch to task list) that have just lost their keyboard shortcut. That's what most of the discussion in this bug is about, which just got ignored by the current patch.

Comment 28

[Jim Porter (:squib)]

Sigh... it would have been nice if the bug title had been updated to be accurate. Oh well. Patch incoming...

Comment 29

[Jim Porter (:squib)]

Attachment: Change the hotkey to [Shift]+F5/F9 instead

Not much to say here. It's the same sort of thing as the previous patch, and meant to be applied on top of it. One notable thing is that it appeared that Mac didn't have the F5/F9 combo, but now it does (at least, I think that's what the preprocessor macros were indicating).

Comment 30

[Steffen Wilberg]

Bug 221360 tried indeed to exclude Mac, but failed, since XP_UNIX includes XP_MAC:
https://developer.mozilla.org/en/Mac_OS_X_Build_Prerequisites#Build_defines

Comment 31

[David :Bienvenu]

Comment on attachment 529387 [details] [diff] [review]
Change the hotkey to [Shift]+F5/F9 instead

this didn't seem to do anything for me on my macbook - have you tried it on the mac?

Comment 32

[Jim Porter (:squib)]

I don't have a Mac, so no, but the code should be identical to Linux, where it works for me. Unless F-keys can't be used on Mac at all...

Comment 33

[David :Bienvenu]

Comment on attachment 529387 [details] [diff] [review]
Change the hotkey to [Shift]+F5/F9 instead

Switching to Blake, since I'm sure he's much more up to date with accelerator keys on the mac.

Comment 34

[Stefan [:stefanh]]

(In reply to comment #31)
> Comment on attachment 529387 [details] [diff] [review] [review]
> Change the hotkey to [Shift]+F5/F9 instead
> 
> this didn't seem to do anything for me on my macbook - have you tried it on the
> mac?

In the OS system prefs (Exposé and Spaces, Exposé tab), F9 is by default mapped to show all windows. At least it is for me, using a sv-SE version of 10.6. Note that using a mb keyboard is probably different, since you'll need to press the fn key to get the F keys (here it gets complicated since I'm unsure what gecko thinks about the fn key - if it ignores the key and just take the F key or not).

Comment 35

[Blake Winton (:bwinton) (:☕️)]

Comment on attachment 529387 [details] [diff] [review]
Change the hotkey to [Shift]+F5/F9 instead

Review of attachment 529387 [details] [diff] [review]:

Tests would be nice, although this seems simple enough that we could probably get away without them.

It's also a shame that the keys don't show up in the Mac's menu anymore, but I don't see a way around that.

I think we probably want a relnote, letting people know that the keys have changed, and what they've changed to.

Thanks,
Blake.

Comment 36

[Blake Winton (:bwinton) (:☕️)]

Comment on attachment 529387 [details] [diff] [review]
Change the hotkey to [Shift]+F5/F9 instead

Crap.  Yes, F9 is Expose for me, too.  (Well, not for me, cause I've removed it, but for a new account.)

Why can't we use F5 everywhere?

Thanks,
Blake.

Comment 37

[Jim Porter (:squib)]

Apparently, Evolution uses F9, so in ages past, Thunderbird emulated that on Linux. I could:

* Use F5 everywhere
* Use F5 everywhere but add F9 as a "backup" on Linux
* Use F5 on Win/Mac and F9 on Linux

Preference?

Comment 38

[Ludovic Hirlimann [:Usul]]

I like what we have right now on nightlies. I'd like input from the lighting team. I'm just going to take a stab at the mac proposal as it's the keyboard I use on a daily basis.

For me F keys are just system keys and I would never use them in an app (and in fact I don't think I can really count any app using them). to get f9 I would need to use both hands to get my mail versus one hand currently with the cmd-shift-D. 

I'd rather see lightning make the change than CORE.

Comment 39

[Ludovic Hirlimann [:Usul]]

http://developer.apple.com/library/mac/#documentation/userexperience/conceptual/applehiguidelines/XHIGUserInput/XHIGUserInput.html says F5 should be usable. But I'm still thinking it feel wrong to mac users.

Comment 40

[Ludovic Hirlimann [:Usul]]

(In reply to comment #37)
> Apparently, Evolution uses F9, so in ages past, Thunderbird emulated that on
> Linux. I could:
> 
> * Use F5 everywhere
> * Use F5 everywhere but add F9 as a "backup" on Linux
> * Use F5 on Win/Mac and F9 on Linux
> 
> Preference?

Maybe we should ping the access mailing list on this http://www.mozilla.org/access/keyboard/#mailinglist

Comment 41

[Jim Porter (:squib)]

Keep in mind comment 15 which - while not a formal poll - suggests that most people don't care too much about these keyboard shortcuts, so even if using F5 made things hard on Mac users, most people probably wouldn't notice.

F5 does have the nice association with "refresh" in browsers though, which is roughly what "Get messages" does. (Not that this is much help if you use Ctrl+R.)

Comment 42

[Stefan [:stefanh]]

(In reply to comment #39)
> http://developer.apple.com/library/mac/#documentation/userexperience/conceptual/applehiguidelines/XHIGUserInput/XHIGUserInput.html
> says F5 should be usable. But I'm still thinking it feel wrong to mac users.

Yeah, I agree on that it'd feel wrong -- as a general "mac" rule you don't want to map F keys to app-specific tasks.

Comment 43

[Wayne Mery (:wsmwk)]

I'm on the fence but have leaning's toward F5 because F5 is already in use, and because of the symmetry with Firefox F5 (which might not be a strong reason, but wouldn't Mac users be aware of it?)

from Mac POV might feel wrong to deviate from the HIG but if this are implemented in Mac then there are plenty of examples:
- Firefox: F3, F6, F7, F10, F11 
- TB: F6, F8, F9, F11 (for lightning) (and F3?) (and F7 if using thunderbrowse?)

Comment 44

[Ludovic Hirlimann [:Usul]]

(In reply to comment #43)
> from Mac POV might feel wrong to deviate from the HIG but if this are
> implemented in Mac then there are plenty of examples:
> - Firefox: F3, F6, F7, F10, F11 

maybe the Ff Ui team has numbers of those key usage on the mac.

Comment 45

[Blake Winton (:bwinton) (:☕️)]

I'm with Wayne; F5 in Aurora on Mac does the standard page-refresh, so for now I'm leaning towards just using F5 everywhere.

And while I like the idea of using Cmd-R to refresh, I don't think that changing the reply key out from under people is really a good idea.  (But that might be because I was burned with the "Mark-Messages-Read/Unread" issue.)

I would certainly love to hear the numbers of people who use the various refresh keys in Firefox, if someone wants to ping the Metrics team.

Comment 46

[Ludovic Hirlimann [:Usul]]

(In reply to comment #45)
 
> I would certainly love to hear the numbers of people who use the various
> refresh keys in Firefox, if someone wants to ping the Metrics team.

done.

Comment 47

[Jim Porter (:squib)]

Attachment: (Untested) Use [Shift]+F5 everywhere, but allow [Shift]+F9 as an alternate on Linux

This should resolve the issue with OS X.

Comment 48

[Jim Porter (:squib)]

Attachment: Fix preprocessor issue (I hope)

Hopefully this fixes the preprocessor issue...

Comment 49

[Blake Winton (:bwinton) (:☕️)]

Comment on attachment 531134 [details] [diff] [review]
Fix preprocessor issue (I hope)

Review of attachment 531134 [details] [diff] [review]:
-----------------------------------------------------------------

I like it.  I think we will want to add another key for Mac OS X users, for the reasons stated above, but that can wait until later.

Thanks,
Blake.

Comment 50

[Ben Bucksch (:BenB)]

FYI, Windows Explorer uses F5 for "refresh current view", and that's what I would naturally expect as hotkey for "get new mail". Similarly, Dolphin (Linux KDE file manager) uses F5, too. Nautilus (Linux GNOME file manager) advertizes Ctrl-R, but when I press F5, it also apparently refreshes the view. So there's evidence for Linux, too.

Comment 51

[Jim Porter (:squib)]

Checked in: http://hg.mozilla.org/comm-central/rev/b29e89e11815

Comment 52

[Ludovic Hirlimann [:Usul]]

(In reply to comment #49)
> I like it.  I think we will want to add another key for Mac OS X users, for
> the reasons stated above, but that can wait until later.

Shall I file a follow-up bug ?

Comment 53

[Blake Winton (:bwinton) (:☕️)]

Sounds like a plan to me…  :)

Thanks,
Blake.

Comment 54

[Ludovic Hirlimann [:Usul]]

bug 655989

Comment 55

[Eugene]

Hi all.

And what key comb finally implemented for Thunderbird 5.0 on Mac for "Get all msgs for all accounts"?
Why I can't find this info in release notes? (And frankly said googling also doesn't help)

Thanks.

Comment 56

[tomasio]

Hi Eugene,

Shift+F5 works for getting new E-mails from all Accounts, F5 for the account currently used. Tested on Thunderbird 5.0 on Mac OS 10.6.5 (Snow Leopard).

cheers,
-- 
tomasio

Comment 57

[Francesco Lodolo [:flod]]

(In reply to comment #55)
> And what key comb finally implemented for Thunderbird 5.0 on Mac for "Get
> all msgs for all accounts"?

This bug
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=655989

Comment 58

[tomasio]

(In reply to comment #57)
> (In reply to comment #55)
> > And what key comb finally implemented for Thunderbird 5.0 on Mac for "Get
> > all msgs for all accounts"?
> 
> This bug
> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=655989

Dear flod,

what do you mean with "this bug"? The bug mentioned above contains _no_ solution nor workaround to this bug. I assume that many users just want to have a working keyboard shortcut for getting all mails at once, so while nothing else is available, "Shift+F5" works. 

If you think that my posting is in the wrong place, feel free to move it to the regarding bug though.

Comment 59

[Francesco Lodolo [:flod]]

It simply meant that a different shortcut for Mac is discussed in bug 655989, since "shift+F5" becomes "shift+fn+F5" on macbooks. AFAIK right now the shortcut for Get all messages on all platforms is shift+F5.

Comment 60

[tomasio]

(In reply to comment #59)
> It simply meant that a different shortcut for Mac is discussed in bug
> 655989, since "shift+F5" becomes "shift+fn+F5" on macbooks.(...)
Ok, I get it. Anyway, I own a Macbook Pro and am able to use "Shift+F5" for checking mails on all accounts.

Comment 61

[Eugene]

(In reply to comment #56)
> Hi Eugene,
> 
> Shift+F5 works for getting new E-mails from all Accounts, F5 for the account
> currently used. Tested on Thunderbird 5.0 on Mac OS 10.6.5 (Snow Leopard).
> 
> cheers,
> -- 
> tomasio


Thanks tomasio, it works.

Just wondering why F5 - for current account, and shift+F5 - for All. I would prefer inverse - F5 - for All account, because I'm 99% sure that "checking all account" is more frequently used func than "check single account" (partially because I should be aware which account is currently selected to be sure that correct account will be checked for new messages, so I prefer to check All by single key press)

Is there any way to setup own key comb for Thunderbird? I see that key_config addon isn't available for Thunderbird 5.

Thanks.

Comment 62

[Pete Riley]

(In reply to comment #61)
> Is there any way to setup own key comb for Thunderbird? I see that
> key_config addon isn't available for Thunderbird 5.

Keyconfig works with Thunderbird 5.  It was updated 2011-05-22.  The link is in the first paragraph of this Mozillazine topic:  http://forums.mozillazine.org/viewtopic.php?t=72994

Comment 63

[Eugene]

(In reply to comment #62)
> (In reply to comment #61)
> > Is there any way to setup own key comb for Thunderbird? I see that
> > key_config addon isn't available for Thunderbird 5.
> 
> Keyconfig works with Thunderbird 5.  It was updated 2011-05-22.  The link is
> in the first paragraph of this Mozillazine topic: 
> http://forums.mozillazine.org/viewtopic.php?t=72994

Great thanks, Pete.
It works in both Firefox and Thunderbird 5.

PS. Just wondering why keyconfig can't be found by builtin "Addon search" feature.

Comment 65

[Thomas D. (:thomas8)]

(In reply to Jim Porter (:squib) from comment #48)
> Created attachment 531134 [details] [diff] [review]
> Fix preprocessor issue (I hope)
> Hopefully this fixes the preprocessor issue...

Fwiw/ftr, here's another comment on preprocessor issues:

(In reply to Phil Ringnalda (:philor) from Bug 329687 Comment 8)
> Created attachment 343755 [details] [diff] [review]
> Fix v.1
> I always feel a little dirty using XP_UNIX to mean XP_UNIX_AND_MACOSX, but
> it's already impossible to survive if you don't know that's true, so I guess
> it doesn't matter.