Text Zoom setting should be remembered across browser sessions

RESOLVED WONTFIX

Status

()

Core
CSS Parsing and Computation
P1
major
RESOLVED WONTFIX
17 years ago
7 years ago

People

(Reporter: Peter Lockhart, Assigned: dbaron)

Tracking

({testcase})

Trunk
testcase
Points:
---

Firefox Tracking Flags

(Not tracked)

Details

(Whiteboard: [see valid bugs 4821, 108391, and 218302])

Attachments

(1 attachment)

(Reporter)

Description

17 years ago
Change the font size to something other than 100% while browsing. (Menu:
View|Text Size)
Close the browser.
Re-open the browser.
Font-size setting has defaulted back to 100%.

The setting should be remembered between closing and opening the browser.

Comment 1

17 years ago
CC'ing jag again, really sorry to spam man, but I have no better place to send
text size bugs. (see also bug 64449 and bug 65156)

Comment 2

17 years ago
mpt: wontfix, wasn't it?

Comment 3

17 years ago
Yes, wontfix. The `Text Size' menu is meant to temporarily fix individual Web 
pages (or Web sites) which override your default font and use a font that is too 
small or too large. If you want your *default* font size to be smaller or larger, 
you should change it in the `Fonts' category of preferences.

Comment 4

17 years ago
But the default font size only applies to the default font, and is easily
overridden (by design) by web page authors. I can see where someone would like
all fonts (not just the default one) a few notches larger, persisted across
sessions.

Then again, if I recally correctly Windows 9x provides a feature where you can
have all fonts be some percentage larger than specified by the program's author,
so perhaps this should be an OS thing and not a Mozilla thing?

Comment 5

17 years ago
confirming based on the discussion to remove it from the unco radar,
and over to UIDF.
Assignee: asa → hangas
Status: UNCONFIRMED → NEW
Component: Browser-General → User Interface: Design Feedback
Ever confirmed: true
QA Contact: doronr → mpt

Comment 6

17 years ago
if we implement something, it'd be part of the preferences dialog 
[appearance/fonts appearance/zoom]. The menu setting should not persist.

Yes windows has a scaling, we sort of support it, but i haven't played w/ it 
much, i can set mpt or jag up on my box in that mode if they want to play.
(Reporter)

Comment 7

17 years ago
Ahh, I reported this as a bug since the behaviour in IE is to have the font
scaling persist from menus, and we're all more used to that now hey :)
It would be great to have a preference to have zooming/scaling persist across
sessions in preferences as well.

Comment 8

17 years ago
Remember, Internet Explorer does not (as far as I can tell) allow you to specify 
a default font size in preferences, just a default typeface. Their text size 
submenu is a poor substitute, IMO.

Comment 9

17 years ago
Chaning the qa contact on these bugs to me. MPT will be moving to the 
owner of this component shortly. I would like to thank him for all his hard 
work as he moves roles in mozilla.org...Yada, Yada, Yada...
QA Contact: mpt → zach

Comment 10

17 years ago
updating to new owner. sorry for the spam.
Assignee: hangas → mpt
*** Bug 76988 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***
OS: Windows 98 → All

Comment 12

16 years ago
*** Bug 88738 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***
*** Bug 92204 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***

Comment 14

16 years ago
*** Bug 92695 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***

Comment 15

16 years ago
*** Bug 88705 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***

Comment 16

16 years ago
*** Bug 110951 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***

Comment 17

16 years ago
I recently filed bug 110951, which obviously was resolved as a dupe of this one.

Just want to emphasize that my point is _not_ that I want Mozilla to
behave as IE. I don't give a f--k about IE. My point is that we are many
Mozilla users with less than 100.0 % vision capability. More and more web sites
are using CSS (which of course is a Good Thing) to specify document fonts.
Hence, the font size set in Preferences is ignored (unless I uncheck
"Allow documents to use other fonts").

What would be the drawback of making the menu setting for Text Zoom persistent?




Updated

16 years ago
Depends on: 52902
*** Bug 113605 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***

Comment 19

16 years ago
*** Bug 123889 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***

Updated

16 years ago
Summary: changed text size resets to 100% between browser sessions → Text Zoom resets to 100% between browser sessions

Comment 20

16 years ago
*** Bug 129227 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***

Comment 21

16 years ago
I agree that some type of text zoom be persistant accross links and new windows.
 I don't want to change my default font, I want to temporarily zoom to text so
my grandparents can read the text when I want to show them some web page.  After
showing them I could toggle it back to normal.

Comment 22

15 years ago
See also bug 135006, "Make text zoom a preference setting" (wontfix).

Comment 23

15 years ago
Here's another vote for making this persistent, either by making menu entry
sticky or via a preferences setting. I use a 21 inch monitor at work at
1280x1024, and a page that specifies "font-size: 9px" ends up really small. The
font settings in the preferences are only in effect if no font is specified on
the web page, or if the browser is set to prevent documents from using other
fonts.  Forcing a font size is less than ideal, though, because it also prevents
relative sizing.  So 9px, 12px, and 30px will all render the same size.  The
text zoom option deals with this quite well.

My view is that the browser is changing something I set without asking me first.
 If I set text zoom to 120%, I want it to stay there until I change it.

Comment 24

15 years ago
We should not just make this global setting and forget about it.

I think we should have both globalsetting, which will only affect on new window,
and per-widnow nad per-doc setting which will be inherited by child window.
And those short cuts and Text Zoom menu should only affect per-window and per-
doc setting.

More deatiled comments over this from me can be found at
Comment #18 in http://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=66896

Thanks.

Comment 25

15 years ago
*** Bug 149050 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***

Comment 26

15 years ago
We've just rolled out 1.0 to 50 of our desktops in test and after a week more
than   
25% had this as the thing that annoyed them most.  I'd have thought that some of
the crashers would have been higher but I guess that IE has got them used to that.
A global preference setting for an initial zoom would appear to solve most of
their issues.

Comment 27

15 years ago
Changing the font size using "Text Zoom" really should be remembered between
sessions, at least IE6 remembers (sometimes!). If your eyes are somewhat
deficient its a real pain to have to set things up yet again, again, again.......

Updated

15 years ago
Keywords: mozilla1.1
Hardware: PC → All

Updated

15 years ago
Summary: Text Zoom resets to 100% between browser sessions → Text Zoom setting should be remembered across browser sessions

Comment 28

15 years ago
*** Bug 152900 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***

Comment 29

15 years ago
*** Bug 154005 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***

Comment 30

15 years ago
I've found that MANY web pages actually display properly at 90%, and text has a
tendancy to wrap where it isn't supposed to at 100%.  msnbc.com is a good
example of this.  I don't know why it does this...I guess they only test their
pages in IE.  Anyway, just giving another reason to support this feature other
than 'it should behave like IE'.  It shouldn't...it should behave better!

Comment 31

15 years ago
Text Sizes (%tual) should be changeable (by a slidebar maybe) in the
appareance->fonts preferences menu so that that size is the default one.
just "remembering" is bad because sometimes (i use 1600*1200 on a 22") the
webpages just use too small fonts - or if some ppl visit me and do not have that
good eyes i switch it.

Comment 32

15 years ago
*** Bug 155329 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***

Updated

15 years ago
Keywords: nsbeta1
WONTFIX. As discussed in other bugs, the text zoom feature is a transient (per-
domain, per session) feature, the page zoom (when it exists) will be a permanent
feature and is what users on this bug really want, and the font size pref is a
permanent setting which users should change if they want to change the font size.
Status: NEW → RESOLVED
Last Resolved: 15 years ago
Resolution: --- → WONTFIX

Comment 34

15 years ago
What other bugs?  That (can't persist because it is transient) sounds like a
circular argument.  If it is that temporary, why persist it within a session? 
Why should text zoom behave differently than page zoom?  And why would users who
want to persist text zooming also have to zoom the graphics?  What component
does this bug really belong in anyway?  And why don't we have any UE input on
this?  cc marlon.
do a search on resolved bugs with "text zoom" in the summary.

Comment 36

15 years ago
Reopening...this bug doesn't seem to have been closed for any valid reason.
Status: RESOLVED → REOPENED
Resolution: WONTFIX → ---

Comment 37

15 years ago
Ian, I just looked at numerous similar bugs using that query, some of which
refer to discussions elsewhere, but I can find none, nor even any reasons why
this should not be considered.  My other questions remain, particularly what
component does this belong in?  IIRC, Jag did the original implementation, why
isn't this bug assigned to him?
See bug 131236, bug 41847, bug 74186.

The intent of the layout team is that we should have the following features to
control font rendering:

   A permanent way of specifying the user's preferred size: Font Size pref 
      (already fully implemented)
   A permanent way of specifying the minimum allowed font size: Minimum Font
      Size pref (already fully implemented)
   A persistent but easily accessible way of changing the size of the entire 
      page: Page Zoom (bug 4821)
   A domain-specific way of changing the text size: Text Zoom (it is currently 
      session-specific, see bug 155448).

There would be no point making the font zoom a persistent feature, as if we did
that it would be redundant with the preferred font size feature.

Jag didn't implement this feature, he merely added the UI for it (if I recall
correctly; I could be mistaken). The feature is currently owned by dbaron and
rbs, the font guys in layout. (That is separate from the small amount of code
that is the UI of the feature.)
Assignee: mpt → attinasi
Status: REOPENED → NEW
Component: User Interface Design → Layout
QA Contact: zach → petersen
(Reporter)

Comment 39

15 years ago
I tend to agree with ianh even though I reported the bug. I think this should be
a WONTFIX as the current behaviour covers most succinctly what a user needs to do.
You have 2 options with text size changing:
1) Global, session-persistant changes are possible via the Preferences menu.
2) Temporary, non-persistant changes affecting the current tab/window via the
Text Size option (or ctrl - / ctrl +)

These cover pretty much what is needed of the browser. 

By making the Text Size option persist brings up many problems particularly with
tabs (I reported this before tabs existed). Assume I change text size settings
on tab 3:
Should it persist with new tabs on the current session ?
Should it persist with all new tabs on the next session or just tab 3 in the
next session ?
This is going to make behaviour more annoying and we'll then see loads of bug
reports from users now wondering why the font is so small in tab x all the time
while other tabs are fine. "Why can't I set this globally ?", "Why don't global
preferences take precedence ?" etc etc

I think the primary reason for the dups and interest here stems from the fact
that the similar setting in IE persists - but then IE doesnt have tabs :)

Basically, the current behaviour is sufficient and this should be marked as
WONTFIX imo.
Indeed, persistence gives us the extra problem of "which zoom factor do you
persist" when you have multiple windows and multiple tabs.

In any case, page authors have made it very clear that they do not want us to
persist font zoom.
(oh, and users shouldn't be using font zoom as a persistent setting because
doing so screws up page layouts. Bug 4821's page zoom gets around that, and
should be persistent.)

Comment 42

15 years ago
The page authors are the ones setting the font sizes that users want to
override, so I'm not sure why they should have any say in this. I'm still not
sure this is correctly assigned, not just because there is nobody at  the
assignee email address, but because layout provides the capability for
displaying web pages according to what users set in the UI for their app, it
should not be controlling the UI in all embedding apps as well.  In fact, we
already have most of the persistence and redundancy issues that have been
raised, we just don't persist across session boundaries, which may be the right
behavior, but I still haven't heard why, nor does there seem to be agreement in
the bugs you cite. Since 90+% of browser users have a prominent text size
setting that persists across windows and sessions, it would seem to be an
expected feature. Is there anything in the UI that even suggests that the zoom
is temporary? I understand that it is limited to one tab/window view, but many
users never open a second view, so that may not be apparent. I see no other
equivalent to the text zoom that persists; the font prefs you cite are similar
in some respects, but not the same, and they are relatively buried in the UI.
IMO, the text zoom setting should be part of the API for layout; is it currently
hardcoded to start at 100% for new views?  

Comment 43

15 years ago
First of all, the preferences only works when the page author hasn't
overriden the default text size.  Second, on some pages Mozilla by
default displays text too large.  Go to www.msnbc.com.  You will find
the page does not format correctly until you shrink the text down to
90%. I am sure other pages have the same behavior.
(Assignee)

Comment 44

15 years ago
The primary reason that text zoom shouldn't be persistent is that it breaks
poorly designed pages (i.e., most of the web) and **even some cases of
well-designed pages**.  A full zoom feature wouldn't break such pages.  If we
allowed text zoom to be persistent, users would be annoyed at the broken pages
(perhaps without knowing why the pages were broken) and we'd get large numbers
of bugs about broken pages.

(See also bug 24846, about making the default font preferences UI more prominent.)

Comment 45

15 years ago
Isn't unreadably small text the main problem this addresses? As one of the many
boomers moving to bi-focals, I know it sure is for me. To what extent is the
size of non-text elements even perceived as a problem?  I'm not arguing against
a page zoom, I just think text zoom is quite valuable by itself, and that it
might be better to treat it more like other sticky prefs.  Also, I really don't
understand the argument about breaking pages relating to increasing the
persistence. We have the feature, it is set by the user, and it does persist
longer than the page where it was set.   IE has essentially the same feature,
and persists it across windows and sessions. Do we have any evidence that this
is seen as a problem for their hundreds of millions of users?  If so, great, but
if not, why assume that we would encounter such problems?
(Assignee)

Comment 46

15 years ago
Windows IE does not have a text zoom feature.  (Its "Text Size" menu is the
equivalent of our font size UI that's in the prefs dialog.  WinIE doesn't have
any font size UI in the preferences dialog.)  Mac IE does have text zoom.

Try looking at http://www.netscape.com/ in MacIE or Mozilla with text zoom of
200%.  (Note the left side of the page.)  Full zoom wouldn't do that.  That's
why we want full zoom -- it's more useful since it's less destructive to pages.
 It would also help users who can't read, say, the text on http://www.apple.com/ .

(If the web were a better place, web authors wouldn't be putting text in images
or using font sizes significantly smaller than the user's default.  These
features are all workarounds for bad authoring techniques.)

Comment 47

15 years ago
Okay, thanks, that is a fine but important distinction.  I think we need to
better expose the font sizing we have in prefs, so it can be changed easily on
the fly.
(Assignee)

Comment 48

15 years ago
Do we?  Significant numbers (most?) of the pages where you see illegibly small
fonts if you have your font size preferences set large enough are those that
specify pixel or point sizes for fonts.  Exposing the font size preferences
better won't cause any changes to those pages.  (Try fiddling with MSIE's font
size controls on http://www.netscape.com/ .  Only a small portion of the text
changes size.)

I'm still in favor of exposing the font size preferences better at setup time
(see bug 24846) and exposing a full zoom feature better while viewing pages (bug
4821).
> The page authors are the ones setting the font sizes that users want to
> override, so I'm not sure why they should have any say in this. 

No, they're not -- that's the whole point, and why this feature should be
site-specific and not cross-session.

Consider this scenario:

   User visits site A.
   User can't read text on site A so zooms it up.
   User visits site B.
   User finds page is broken because the text is zoomed up, and blames the 
      author of site B.

The author of site B is *unfairly* having his site shown badly because of our
persistence of the font _zoom_ pref.

Plus everything dbaron said.

Comment 50

15 years ago
So who set the text too small on site A?
My main concern is that there is no indication to the user that this command
would be site specific any more than page-specific. Consider a very simple
scenario: 
I can't read the text.
I use <first feature I can find> to make it readable.
I go to another page/site/window.
The text is too small again.
I have to use <same feature> again.
Repeat until the computer flies through the window.

In the example you cite above, if I go to site B, and the text is larger than I
want, I'm quite capable of setting it back.

The point is, if *I* override the size, it should be up to *me* when to reset
it, not to some web author, developer or W3C committee. This is pretty
fundamental, and applies to numerous other things that the app just remembers. 
I'm sure you could make the same kind of argument about how sites are best
viewed with certain fonts, colors, window size and placement, etc.  I'm sure the
web authors would love to reset those and my home page every time I started the
browser too, so their site would come up full-screen. 
If text zoom really needs to be specific to a page or site, then that would
ideally be apparent in the UI, and going back to that page or site would always
give the same results, regardless of what window or session it was displayed in.
 Is that your intent?
One suggestion given on IRC was to add the following menu item to the Font Zoom
submenu:

   Permanent Settings...

...which opens the prefs window on the font size panel.

That would make it clear that font zoom was not permanent.

Comment 52

15 years ago
Another suggestion for non-persistence text-size:
When opening a new tab/window from a link, the new tab/window should inherit the
current window zoom-size.
Maybe it's better to apply this rule only if the link destination is within the
same domain as the source (BUG 155448).

Comment 53

15 years ago
Sorry if I'm restating old arguments, and perhaps for sounding a bit heated, but:
I've used Mozilla everyday (on W2K) now for almost a year, and for about 75 or
more percent of the pages I immediately change text zoom to 90 percent, because
the default is too large, and my change is not being remembered.
Too large then means:
- Leading to bad layout (stated before).
- Larger than the typical font size in the OS UI (e.g. type something in Notepad).
As for font size preferences:
- I like to see myself as a /user/.  I want larger text, not fiddle with pixel
sizes.
- From Ians arguments: "A permanent way of specifying the user's preferred size:
Font Size pref (already fully implemented)".  This is untrue, see above, users
need one size setting, not a multitude of pixel settings.
- Doesn't always work (stated before).
And the full zoom option:
- I do not /want/ full zoom, only the /text/ is too small.
- The text zoom option does exactly what is needed, except for heaving a bas memory.

By now the necessity to change text zoom for every new page is driving me crazy,
hence my little contribution, I even especially created a Bugzilla account for
this.  And I am thinking about ditching Mozilla just for this, which is bad.
I can see that the "fault" is perhaps distributed over OS, webpage and Mozilla
designers, but I can only see it being solved easily in Mozilla.
I cannot see why there would be such an enormous resistance to something that
already works well, but only has its entry in the preferences menu missing.

Comment 54

15 years ago
I recommend resolving this bug as wontfix, or a duplicate of bug 4821.

Text Zoom is a nice tool for increasing the readability of pages with small
fonts. Yet, on a technical level, as has been stated, Text Zoom breaks many web
pages because they are designed with the relative pixel height of images and
text in mind. Text Zoom only increases the size of text, not of images. Thus,
Text Zoom should not be a global or a permanent setting. It should eventually be
limited to a single domain, as per bug 155448.

Some users want to make all pages bigger or smaller, depending on their personal
preferences. The solution is Page Zoom, a feature that will be implemented by
the fix for bug 4821. Because Page Zoom will affect the size of both text and
images, making the setting permanent, global, or both will not be a problem.
Thus, further dupes of this bug should be of bug 4821.

There is still the UI problem of communicating to users that Text Zoom settings
are not permanent or global. Comment 51 makes a good suggestion to fix that
problem. A new bug can be opened to implement it. Other suggestions are welcome,
too.

Let's stop wasting our time in this bug and move on.

Comment 55

15 years ago
I still have to disagree.  If I set an option in the browser, I expect it to
stay set until I unset it, even if it's "for your own good".  Having the text
zoom come unstuck when navigating between pages makes a bad situation worse.

I understand that it's to avoid breaking pages that depend on font pixel sizes
being equal to other pixel sizes.  But the oft given (comment 51 most recently)
solution of setting font sizes via Preferences|Appearence|Fonts breaks them in
the same way.  If I set the font size to 72 pixels and uncheck the "Allow web
pages to use other fonts" options, it will certainly break most pages' layout. 
Yet, this is permitted to be a persistent setting.

As has been repeatedly mentioned, BTW, this is an incorrect solution to the
problem of a permanent text zoom because (a) it only works on all sites if you
prevent them from changing fonts, and (b) it forces all text to the same size
and face, rather than just sizing them relatively.

And I too disagree that page zoom is the answer. It makes page layout stay the
same, but at the expense of enlarging elements that don't necessarily need
enlarging.  Image stretching inevitably introduces artifacts in the images.

There are certainly people that will prefer one over the other; I just think
there should be a choice in the matter.  Those that prefer text zoom should be
able to have it without Mozilla deliberately making it harder to use by
resetting it without permission.

Comment 56

15 years ago
*** Bug 159109 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***

Comment 57

15 years ago
As the reporter of the latest bug to be marked as a dupe of this - [also I don't
know why my search for "text zoom" case insensitive, all words as substrings,
all other options left at default, didn't find this bug? Anyway, apologies for
the dupe].

However, having now read the long list of comments, it is clear that:

 1. Some people follow the infamous "principle of least surprise" approach to UI
design, and hence favour making font size persistent. YMMV.. (personally, in an
ideal world, I would prefer to have the current (non-persistent) setting AND an
extra "Preferences -> Appearance -> Fonts" setting of "Zoom all fonts by: XX %").
 2. Others argue that "Page Zoom" actually gives what is being asked for
*functionally* - i.e. making everything bigger.
 3. A response that seems to exist - but has so far not truly been addressed -
is that "No, Page Zoom is NOT what we're looking for - we can see images
perfectly well, and just want to see bigger Text."
 4. ...to which the main response is (appears to be - apologies if I am missing
something here) "It risks making other people's pages look bad with the default
(text size != 100%) settings".

I have four things to add:

 1. (c.f. my bug report) Vast numbers of real world desktops run at high
resolution (providing lots of space to have lots of windows up) but not massive
22" CRTs. Indeed, 99% of all mid- to high-range laptops come with 15" screens
running at 1400x1050 or 1600x1200. 8pt fonts are totally unreadable. NOTE:
     PAGE ZOOM makes the owner of said laptop/monitor why the heck they bothered
buying that high-res graphics card.
     TEXT ZOOM gives them the power to fix the problem themselves, quickly,
easily, etc. - but this bug is (has become?) about the fact that it isn't
painless and has to be done EVERY DAY on EVERY USAGE of Mozilla.

 2. Partially sighted/blind people really really DO have massive problems with
text size, (although I don't think anyone disagrees) but often (sometimes
because of 1. above) REALLY don't want to change the image size. Personally, I
cannot comfortably read any fonts less than about 14pt on a typical (e.g.
1280x1024 @ 17") monitor. I can attest (having used IE for about 5 years) that
even today 95% of websites are fine with text zoom, despite potential image
layout problems - thats why I use a web browser, to dynamically re-layout a web
page to suit *MY* decisions as a user.

 3. If you truly believe Text Zoom has so little practical use, please disable
it in the next Mozilla release, and discover how many people *really* start to
complain (the silent ones who at the moment don't know how to/can't be bothered
to submit bug reports). If you are right, everyone will migrate to using Page
Zoom, and this bug can be closed. (Note: this suggestion is semi-serious: I
don't think page zoom will solve the problems for me personally, but I'm willing
to accept that maybe it will for almost everyone else. Yet the arguments put
forward in this bug comments section certainly aren't demonstrating that at all.)

 4. Argument number 4 (in the summary above) is logical but faintly ridiculous;
please follow the following steps:
   a. Visit a site using just images, no text (a cartoon site like Dilbert.com
will do fine)
   b. Go to preferences.
   c. Set font to "red" on "green" background.
   d. Override settings for all pages.
   e. (dilbert still looks OK)
   f. Visit a site with no text... such as:
     www.W3c.org
   g. OH MY GOD! W3C ARE USING RED TEXT ON A GREEN BACKGROUND! No, wait, um,
although I'm only a stupid user, I'm not *THAT* stupid. Please!
   

Comment 58

15 years ago
*** Bug 159297 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***

Comment 59

15 years ago
I agree with Peter in comment 47. This is another problem caused by our horrible
prefs UI. And the longer a cleanup of the prefs is delayed, the more the rest of
the UI will be damaged by incorrect resolutions to bugs such as this one (see
also bug 89907 comment 19).

In particular, the solution to this bug is to remove the confusing category
branches from the Preferences dialog so that Fonts is at the top level.
Changing component from layout to preferences and reassigning.
Assignee: attinasi → ben
Component: Layout → Preferences
QA Contact: petersen → sairuh
(Assignee)

Comment 61

15 years ago
This isn't preferences.  Text zoom lives mostly in the style system now, so taking.
Assignee: ben → dbaron
Component: Preferences → Style System
QA Contact: sairuh → ian
The arguments against this bug are simple: if you want permanent font zoom,
change the two font size prefs in the font size prefs dialog. Font zoom should
reset for each site, let alone each browser session.

I wouldn't be against removing the the monospace font size pref UI, and making
the font size UI change both the monospace and normal text sizes. (Indeed, one
of the first things I do whenever installing Mozilla is always to set them both
to 16px, and it looks fine.)

I also think we should have a menu item "Persistent Settings..." in the Font
Zoom menu which brings up the font size prefs panel.

dbaron: What do you intend to do to "fix" this bug?
Ian, you're setting them both to 16px on a Linux system and it looks fine?

Comment 64

15 years ago
Ok, having been a user of Text Zoom, and finding it extremely useful, I'll chime
in with ever important user input. First, Text Zoom, like ANY OTHER SETTING
should persist in a session. There is nothing intelligent anyone can say that
would justify ignoring the user's expectation. When a user SETS a switch, the
switch should not move until the user changes it again. Currently, it's as
though you're typing in a word processor, and after every paragraph the program
changes your font type and size to the program defaults. MS Publisher used to do
something like this; you'd draw a text frame, set the font and size, type, and
then when you would create a new text frame, the default setting would be
reinstated. This caused millions of users (such as myself) no end of
frustration. So in the next version, they made it so that if, before drawing any
text frames, you selected a font and size, THEN created the text frame, it would
persist. This was not intuitive, and most folks never caught it. Finally, after
much lamenting on the user side, they made it possible to have default settings
user definable.

This should persist in a session, and in windows/tabs spawned from that window.
The user is not likely to wonder why site B's type is so huge if they set it to
150% in site A. They'll maybe think, "Huh?" then realize that the font is huge,
and change it back. But chances are most people are going to want this to
persist, such as if my grandpa joe wants to look at fishing sites. People do not
create new profiles nearly as much as designers think they should/will.

There should be a pref (yes, a pref) SOMEWHERE to set the default font size
something other than 100%. Remember, we have font smaller sizes selectable, so
scaling isn't an end all solution. Smaller typefaces are REALLY handy when
working at smaller resolutions (especially if you're used to larger screen
resolutions [think desktop/laptop]) when you want to be able to read more text
per screen. Scaling is a neat idea, but not a replacement for this.

After a session hashing out ideas, Timeless and I have come up with a decent
solution.

See attachment.

We think this is a decent compromise.

Comment 65

15 years ago
Created attachment 95687 [details]
Pic of proposed menu.

The proposed menu works like so:

The current default zoom level is shown with "Default  Crtl-0" to the right of
the setting, in this case, 100%.

The current selected zoom level is shown with the Dot to the left, and the text
"Select as Default" to the right.

When the user start a session, the default is used, and the dot is to the left
of the level, and default marked as stated. Should the user change this, the
newly selected zoom level is now noted with the dot to the left, and the text
"Select as Default" to the right. Should the user then selct THAT again, it
becomes the new default, with the same Ctrl-0 keycombo. That's the default zoom
level's keycombo. It moves with the default setting.

Comment 66

15 years ago
Re: comment 62;

Ian, please explain how your comment is true in the light of comments:

 4, 17, 23, 42, 43, 48, 53?

Or, please explain what is "broken" on so many people's copies of Mozilla (I,
for one), that when we specify font settings they get completely ignored on
about 30% of the pages we visit? Unless we prevent them from specifying ANY font
settings, and then the page often looks "wrong" (because the font-family is now
wrong), and the font sizes as well (which were specified by the web-designer as
a combination of "px" "pt" and "+X"/"-X" relative size-changes).

It is fair to say that web-designers could be:

 A. Much more consistent within their own pages (but AFAICS the specs so NOT
require/prevent any particular combinations of different font-sizing methods?)
 B. Pay much more attention to the HTML, CSS, etc W3C-specs

...but they aren't. And they aren't all going to change just because of Mozilla.
So, the choice appears to be: will Mozilla work around them, or do the users
have to dump Mozilla in favour of a web-browser that is willing to make up for
some of the (metaphorical) short-sightedness of web-designers?

Comment 67

15 years ago
Another alternative: we could change the name of the feature to "Site Zoom."
That could produce greater understanding of the feature.

Comment 68

15 years ago
I think that would reduce understanding; I would expect most people could guess
what text zoom is, but I wouldn't expect anyone other than those on the cc list
of this bug to figure out what Site Zoom was.

Comment 69

15 years ago
err, i'm not on the visible cc list, and trudelle's right, i have no idea what
site zoom is or might be :-).  that said, I'm eager to hear responses to our
proposal (comment 65/attachment 95687 [details]).

Comment 70

15 years ago
To me, the proposal in comment 65 is far to nonstandard to be acceptable. 
Choosing the same setting twice generates a different result?  I think not! 
This is generally unheard of.
There are clearly enough of us who want permament text zoom, be it across
browser settings or per site (imho bad idea, but better than nothing).  The fix
us people would like would be to leave the menu intact but make the setting
(more or) less permanent.  Note that this makes this an exception, e.g.
"character coding" isn't remembered either...
If there is need at all for an unrembered per-tab textzoom, this will have to
lead to two entries in the browser, one clearly stating "browser deafult" or
something.
Cheers,
Grote Knark

Comment 71

15 years ago
As an answer to comment #65: the proposed solution look fine from my "simple
user" (non-developer, non-web-designer) point of view.

I'm here looking for a less ambitious solution (open link on new window/tab
inherit Text zoom definition from parent) but I found that bugs with similar
subject was closed as dup of 65571. Personally, I like the idea of a global,
permanent definition about Text zoom but I'm not sure if this "feature" must be
implemented or not (I need time to read the standards and the previous
discussion again). But, going back to my start point, quoting from comment #38:

"A domain-specific way of changing the text size: Text Zoom (it is currently
session-specific, see bug 155448)."

What's exactly the scope for "session-specific" items?

As far as I understand, open links from the same site on a new window/tab must
preserve my previously defined Text zoom value (eg: open related news on cnn web
site or open related/duplicated bugs on bugzilla). Open links on new windows or
tabs preserve my login session, action that involve my browser and the server,
then, I expect my browser to preserve the Text zoom parameter at less for the
same site, something that only requiere "local" agreement.

If I'm right, there is a bug into the actual implementation of Text zoom. If
not.. well... comment #65 is a good solution for me.

BTW, I don't use mozilla on full screen mode, and Text zoom at 90% is my way to
keep most (but not all) pages on a "readable" state.

Comment 72

15 years ago
To commetn 70, Vlijmen Fileer:
No, selecting the currently selected zoomlevel a second time does NOT produce a
different result. It merely sets that as the new default, as noted by the text
next to the item. Remember old fashioned radios that had 5 or so big buttons
(which form0feild radio buttons are named for)? You tune to the station you
want,  then you PULL out the button (select a zoom level) then PUSH it back in
to set it as the sation for that button (make it the default).

To comment 71, Daniel Yanez:
Yes, any tab/window created by that window (popups, or you open a link in a new
tba/window, ,or "file> New Window/Tab", etc.) share the same zoomlevel. And the
current zoom level feature IS a bit buggy...

Comment 73

15 years ago
I think that this way of setting a default is at least as undiscoverable and
confusing as the way old car radios used to work. I'm going to put in a
shameless appeal to authority- Jakob Nielsen just addressed this in his latest
alertbox, <http://www.useit.com/alertbox/20020819.html>.  He claims that the 99%
case is handled by a visible affordance (button) allowing users to enlarge the
text.  He also presents an interesting idea for collaborative filtering to set
initial font size prefs per site.  Worth a look.

Comment 74

15 years ago
I'm sure for the folks that want this type of feature (me, timeless, many
others), this is a great solution. To some people, and the UI dept., it's awful.
I think we need to stage a coup.

/me storms the gates!
(Assignee)

Comment 75

15 years ago
Note that Nielsen's column suggests that the zoom should be per-site, not
persistent (and should be remembered for that site).  Part of that is bug
155448, but not all.

Comment 76

15 years ago
To comment 75 and earlier remarks along the same line:
I don't know about you guys and other people, but I do /not/ use text zoom
because I visit so many poorly designed sites.  I use text zoom (90%) on /every/
site /except/ perhaps for poorly designed ones that have a (too) small font
setting?...
I thought this was because the default that Mozilla produces on Win32 is larger
than what other Win32 programs typically give me, but when I check, that's not
really true.  But to me, still almost every site looks better at 90%.
So for me, a site specific and remembered text zoom would be a lesser solution.
To me a browser wide remebered setting, implememted somewhat as Jakob Nielsen
suggests would be ideal.
And then, if we have that, the function can be copied to <ctrl><mousewheel>,
like I saw (I think) in some version of MS Word ;-)
Vlijmen Fileer
(Assignee)

Comment 77

15 years ago
Perhaps you should change your font size preferences instead?  (Edit |
Preferences  | Appearance | Fonts, which is way too hard to find, IMO)

Comment 78

15 years ago
re comment #75 : Nielsen has two suggestions, simplifying users' ability to
change the font size, which should persist until they change it again, and
improving future browsers with a per-site initial default, which is not the same
as our text zoom.

Comment 79

15 years ago
To comment 77:
Personally, I do not find the font settings hard to find at all!  Indeed,
I think them very well placed.  My problems with them are:
1. A really normal user must not know about such things as pixels,
serifs etcetera, "What are they?"; this is crazyness, she just wants
smaller or larger text.
2. I personally am completely flabbergasted by this menu, it is not well
laid-out.  And though I think I know quite a lot about fonts perse, I typically
get no result here from changing anything, or at best /some/ fonts on a page
change size, completely disturbing the balance in a page.  This is useless.
And by the way, there is only a "minimum font size" exception settings, not a
"maximum font size".  Why is this, we are not all people with bad eyesight?
Greetz,
Vlijmen

Comment 80

15 years ago
Let me try to summarize our options....  
  
Current implementation:  
Session-specific, preserve Text zoom value across sites into a given Tab and
child Tab/Window(s). Actually, inheritance to child Window/Tab is not working.  
  
Requested Changes:  
1.- Text zoom must be "Site-specific" under current implementation (per session).  
2.- Text zoom must be "Permanent-site-specific" (local DB).  
3.- Text zoom must be "Permanent-global" (adding item to Preferences or via Menu).  
4.- (2+3) Text zoom must be "Permanent-site-specific" (local DB) and a
customizable default value (pref or menu).  
  
(please, remember the inheritance bug, all options need to fix it)  
  

Comment 81

15 years ago
adding kw : testcase - since steps to reproduce are mentioned in comment 0
Keywords: testcase

Comment 82

15 years ago
*** Bug 164604 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***

Comment 83

15 years ago
*** Bug 176123 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***

Comment 84

15 years ago
I was the submitter of bug 176123.  I apologize for the duplicate entry.  

However...

I don't necessarily agree that it's a duplicate though.  I believe that it is
mentioned here http://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=65571#c80 The
"inheritance problem" needs to be fixed.  Please be patient with me if I am
incorrect, but I believe that it means that as new tabs are created, they revert
back to the default setting.

This entire discussion seem to be larger than that however.  I don't care about
font menus.  I don't want it to be sticky across sessions (IE is like that and I
hate it).  I just want to be able to browse a stinking site without having to
hit ctrl + for every tab I open.

I have some vision problems, but they are mostly corrected by (hard) contact
lenses (only other option is the knife!).  Given the nature of my problems,
lenses don't fit very well (and never will), and tend to move about once in
awhile (well, more frequently than that).  When using mozilla, most of the time
the defaults are fine, but once in awhile it's a very useful to just tap ctrl +
so I can read a page using this awesome brower, but having to constantly change
the setting in the same session is just downright annoying.

So, if my understanding of the comments in 
http://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=65571#c80 are corrent, then why not
spin off a separate bug and do it while the big decision is made?

BTW, site zoom is a far better implementation than the goofy font size change in ie.

Comment 85

15 years ago
*** Bug 180457 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***
*** Bug 180834 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***

Comment 87

15 years ago
*** Bug 180834 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***

Comment 88

15 years ago
*** Bug 186614 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***

Comment 89

15 years ago
RE: Comment 65:

1-No option to put it back where it was, or to go smaller rather than larger
2-How do you choose 120% without making it the new default?
3-120% is excessively granular for many, maybe most. There will need to be an
advanced pref to choose a different default delta. The initial (default) delta
can be set automatically on migrate/create profile once a provision is included
there for the user to choose whether the default needs to be bigger or smaller
than 16px. Higher px values mean a larger pixel increment of 2 or 3 would be
suitable, while those using the 10-15 range should find plenty change apparent
from a single pixel. Users should have the option of a small delta - e.g. 1px.
120% starting from 10px (suitable at 640x480) is a 2px change, resulting in
12px, which is quite large at that resolution.
One thing I don't understand after reading this bug is why does text zoom
persist through the session and not on restart.  I would think that if the issue
is broken pages that the zoom would only be good for the page you were on an not
the next one.  That is more of what I would expect personally else I would
expect it to stay on till I turned it off explicitely whether this session or
another.  I personally would prefer the thing shut itself off after I change
pages as I only rarely care to have it on as it does do odd things to some pages
but if I have to explicitely turn it off I think it should stay on till I do for
consistency.
Andy

Comment 91

15 years ago
And what should people with bad eyesight do, who just need everything a bit
larger? It would drive me completely bananas if the text zoom would reset every
time I leave a site. And so far, I haven't found any other setting that solves
that problem (If I am mistaken, please tell me!). So what we need are probably
two implementations: One permanent setting and one for those "broken sites" I
keep hearing about.

Comment 92

14 years ago
adt: nsbeta1-
Keywords: nsbeta1 → nsbeta1-
(Assignee)

Comment 93

14 years ago
Resummarizing bug to indicated that the persistence should be per-site.  (See
comment 38 and comment 44, among others, for reasons.)
Severity: normal → major
Priority: -- → P1
Summary: Text Zoom setting should be remembered across browser sessions → Text Zoom setting should be remembered (per-site) across browser sessions
(Assignee)

Comment 94

14 years ago
*** Bug 110951 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***

Comment 95

14 years ago
Not only per site, there needs to be a global (or default) setting, too.

Comment 96

14 years ago
*** Bug 211732 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***

Comment 97

14 years ago
My eyesighte varies during the day, sometimes 100% is almost comfortable but
mostly I go to 120%, often I need 150%, and (fortunatele not so often) I need
200% or greater.  I have a 19" monitor at 1280*1024.

So I want to be able to quickly change the text size rather to individually
fiddle with varioius font settings.  It is a real nuisance to have to
individually reset the text view size for each tabbed pane, and new browser
instance.

I have a Linux box and often remain logged in for over a week or more, with at
least one instance of Mozilla running for several days at a time,  So I might
have adjust the text zoom factor at different times, and it would be great if I
could reset the same text zoom factor once for all current tabs.

Please make zoom size persistent and global in effect!  Possibly these features
should be controlled by a preference.  Plus please add a prefernce for the
default text zoom factor.
(Assignee)

Comment 98

14 years ago
*** Bug 217706 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***
(Assignee)

Comment 99

14 years ago
I can no longer tell the difference between this bug and bug 108391.  Many of
the suggestions here are things we're never going to do, while some are a
duplicate of bug 108391 (and made after that bug was filed).

I'm marking this bug a duplicate of bug 108391 (since that contains most of the
valid issues in this bug) and I've also filed bug 218302 for the simpler part of
bug 108391 (forgetting the text zoom when changing sites, rather than
remembering it for when you come back to the site).

*** This bug has been marked as a duplicate of 108391 ***
Status: NEW → RESOLVED
Last Resolved: 15 years ago14 years ago
Resolution: --- → DUPLICATE

Comment 100

14 years ago
*** Bug 211732 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***
(Assignee)

Comment 101

13 years ago
restoring previous summary and reopening to mark wontfix, so we have a place to
dupe the other requests similar to the original request to.  (But see valid
feature requests bug 4821 and bug 108391.)
Status: RESOLVED → REOPENED
Resolution: DUPLICATE → ---
Summary: Text Zoom setting should be remembered (per-site) across browser sessions → Text Zoom setting should be remembered across browser sessions
(Assignee)

Updated

13 years ago
Status: REOPENED → RESOLVED
Last Resolved: 14 years ago13 years ago
Resolution: --- → WONTFIX
Whiteboard: [see valid bugs 4821, 108391, and 218302]
(Assignee)

Comment 102

13 years ago
*** Bug 230935 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***
(Assignee)

Comment 103

13 years ago
*** Bug 243261 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***

Updated

13 years ago
Alias: zoom

Comment 104

13 years ago
*** Bug 269880 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***

Comment 105

12 years ago
*** Bug 327753 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***
*** Bug 342497 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***

Updated

10 years ago
Alias: zoom

Updated

7 years ago
Duplicate of this bug: 567182
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